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  • This is the official discussion thread for S2E2, "Despair Bear".

    Post and share your thoughts on the episode here. You will not need to mark spoilers in this thread.

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    • A weird and funny episode if I have to say. Well, at least Chloe is trying to change, 0.5%, I guess . As I can see, Marinette's still heads over heels over Adrien, oh well.

      P.S: Will we ever get a name for the butler?

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    • This episode marks the start of Chloe's character development which is really good. Hopefully, her character will drastically improve throughout the whole season.

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    • Hawk Moth realized that Chloe's basically his noble enforcer for creating Akumas. She's responsible for almost half the akumatized villains in season 1. It was just so funny watching him try to cheer on Chloe. That might explain why he's always so cold to people in real life, hence Simon Says. I loved this episode.

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    • BelieveInMagic814 wrote:
      A weird and funny episode if I have to say. Well, at least Chloe is trying to change, 0.5%, I guess . As I can see, Marinette's still heads over heels over Adrien, oh well.

      P.S: Will we ever get a name for the butler?

      I don't think so, some rich people don't even care to ask them there names therfore they never find out.

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    • Strider Xanthos wrote: Hawk Moth realized that Chloe's basically his noble enforcer for creating Akumas. She's responsible for almost half the akumatized villains in season 1. It was just so funny watching him try to cheer on Chloe. That might explain why he's always so cold to people in real life, hence Simon Says. I loved this episode.

      Right? Hawkmoth was pretty much banking on Chloe's cruelty to help him akumatize a victim. She's his 'dragon'.

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    • Well what can I say? I just watched two first episodes of the second season, and I already think it's better than the whole Season 1! 

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    • Chloe is on her way to redemption!

      Adrienette dance scene!

      Chlonath!!!

      Some hilarious antics

      Also, possessed Kim and Sabrina are just creepy

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    • The Butler using Mr Cuddles to guilt-trip Chloe is hilarious and adorable.

      Also Hawk Moth's "Oh, Chloe the jerk is throwing a party? Well, better send an akuma that way, cuz she's bound to upset someone!" logic makes me laugh.

      I actually really liked how this was a character development episode, not just about the akumatisation.

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    • Allya373 wrote:

      Chlonath!!!

      Where was a Chlonath scene? I only remember her talking to him once the whole episode.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Allya373 wrote:

      Chlonath!!!

      Where was a Chlonath scene? I only remember her talking to him once the whole episode.

      I think that was it, Chloé actually interacting with Nath for once outside of "The Evillustrator" and "trying" to ask him about the party.

      Hey, I ship it, but whether or not anything comes for it, that scene was hilarious. Poor Nathaniel.

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    • Tansyflower wrote:

      I think that was it, Chloé actually interacting with Nath for once outside of "The Evillustrator" and "trying" to ask him about the party.

      Hey, I ship it, but whether or not anything comes for it, that scene was hilarious. Poor Nathaniel.

      I think it'd be a cute pair, too, but that seems like such a stretch to say it's worthy of tagging "Chlonath", especially so enthusiastically, but I guess that's just how shippers work. It's not a policy I can much agree with, but I can't argue that it's entirely wrong, either.

      Poor Nathaniel indeed, she scared the kid half to death by the look of things. 

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      I think it'd be a cute pair, too, but that seems like such a stretch to say it's worthy of tagging "Chlonath", especially so enthusiastically, but I guess that's just how shippers work. It's not a policy I can much agree with, but I can't argue that it's entirely wrong, either.

      Poor Nathaniel indeed, she scared the kid half to death by the look of things. 

      I agree. I'm a shipper for it, but I don't mind nothing coming of it because it's such an odd, unbelievable (at least from where Chloé is redemption-wise) relationship at the moment.

      What does surprise me is Kim, though. I seriously thought he had gotten over Chloé after "Dark Cupid", at least by his response to Marinette accusing him of it in "Darkblade". However, I guess Kim is not one to give up on a challenge. I love how he pulled the same stunt that Chloé herself did in "The Bubbler" by getting Nino to play slow dance music. I don't know if anything will come from this relationship, as like I mentioned, Chloé is nowhere near that point of having any good romantic relationship. However, if the show decides to put these two together, with good development, interactions, and Chloé redemption, I could come to really support it.

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    • Tansyflower wrote:

      I agree. I'm a shipper for it, but I don't mind nothing coming of it because it's such an odd, unbelievable (at least from where Chloé is redemption-wise) relationship at the moment.

      What does surprise me is Kim, though. I seriously thought he had gotten over Chloé after "Dark Cupid", at least by his response to Marinette accusing him of it in "Darkblade". However, I guess Kim is not one to give up on a challenge. I love how he pulled the same stunt that Chloé herself did in "The Bubbler" by getting Nino to play slow dance music. I don't know if anything will come from this relationship, as like I mentioned, Chloé is nowhere near that point of having any good romantic relationship. However, if the show decides to put these two together, with good development, interactions, and Chloé redemption, I could come to really support it.

      Mh, yeah.

      I think he decided to give her a second chance now that she's being nice. I think, much as I like Kim, he's kind of shallow. He likes Chloe because she's the prettiest girl in school (I would guess), and that's pretty much it. Most days, she doesn't bring much else to the table aside from looks and money.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Tansyflower wrote:

      I think that was it, Chloé actually interacting with Nath for once outside of "The Evillustrator" and "trying" to ask him about the party.

      Hey, I ship it, but whether or not anything comes for it, that scene was hilarious. Poor Nathaniel.

      I think it'd be a cute pair, too, but that seems like such a stretch to say it's worthy of tagging "Chlonath", especially so enthusiastically, but I guess that's just how shippers work. It's not a policy I can much agree with, but I can't argue that it's entirely wrong, either.

      Poor Nathaniel indeed, she scared the kid half to death by the look of things. 

      yeah, sorry

      if you know me, i'm a HUGE chlonath shipper, so eve a tiny thing like 'omg, they're standing beside each other in the same screenshot!' gets me hyped XD so this was just too much for me :D

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    • Allya373 wrote:

      yeah, sorry

      if you know me, i'm a HUGE chlonath shipper, so eve a tiny thing like 'omg, they're standing beside each other in the same screenshot!' gets me hyped XD so this was just too much for me :D

      Hm, I think that's just how shippers work. I ship, but I wouldn't call myself a shipper for that reason. No need to apologise, I was just wondering where such a scene was. Chlonath would be cute, I think. 

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    • Am I the only one who thinks Marinette was a bit hypocritical and stupid in The Collector? Doesn't trust the guy who guards the Miraculous and gave her hers with the fact that might knows who is Hawk Moth just because she thinks it's the guy she loves, then gets relieved when she hears the book is his's dad to immediatly move suspicions on Gabriel, not even thinking that if Adrien was Hawk Moth, he could have just lied about the book being his dad's to avoid suspicion, then not thinking Hawk Moth can use his powers on himself, then chastise Chat Noir for him being relieved that Gabriel isn't Hawk Moth, despite herself doing that earlier in the episode by being relieved that Adrien isn't Hawk Moth without thinking that Hawk Moth being his dad isn't any better. The hypocritical part comes back in Doudou Villain with her not wanting to do anything with Chloé or her party only to immediatly change her mind as soon as Adrien is in the picture, and being annoyed to being compared to Chloé despite doing many similar things like her in the episode and the previous season. I think Adrien's behavior was more being reasonnable, with him dealing with the revelation that his dad is probably his ennemi, having to fight him, not being allowed back to school, and being kept in the dark about Master Fu. Seriously, is he gonna meet him again, or will it just be Marinette. I find it annoying that she gets everything on a silver platter while he is being left out. They're supposed to be partners, but doesn't think once of telling him what she discovered about the book or Master Fu.

      I liked Adrien finally being fed up with Chloé and taking a more drastic approach of telling her off, and she listen to him and the butler, because his friendship means that much to her. And she saves Ladybug and help her and is not being a load like in Antibug. Chloé and Adrien moments are quite cute, and I see that a lot of her issues seems to be from her mom leaving when she was very young and must have come back since then. I think Adrien can sympathise partly because they've been friends so long and also because he lost his mom too and now knows how it's like. That Butler is too kind. Adrien is too kind. And Chloé is finally showing a human side. I wonder where Lila was, she wasn't invited to the party or wasn't punished.

      I hope we'll see Kagami and Luka soon, I don't want to wait 8 episodes before they show up.

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    • Chi of Darkness wrote:
      Am I the only one who thinks Marinette was a bit hypocritical and stupid in The Collector? Doesn't trust the guy who guards the Miraculous and gave her hers with the fact that might knows who is Hawk Moth just because she thinks it's the guy she loves, then gets relieved when she hears the book is his's dad to immediatly move suspicions on Gabriel, not even thinking that if Adrien was Hawk Moth, he could have just lied about the book being his dad's to avoid suspicion, then not thinking Hawk Moth can use his powers on himself, then chastise Chat Noir for him being relieved that Gabriel isn't Hawk Moth, despite herself doing that earlier in the episode by being relieved that Adrien isn't Hawk Moth without thinking that Hawk Moth being his dad isn't any better. The hypocritical part comes back in Doudou Villain with her not wanting to do anything with Chloé or her party only to immediatly change her mind as soon as Adrien is in the picture, and being annoyed to being compared to Chloé despite doing many similar things like her in the episode and the previous season. I think Adrien's behavior was more being reasonnable, with him dealing with the revelation that his dad is probably his ennemi, having to fight him, not being allowed back to school, and being kept in the dark about Master Fu. Seriously, is he gonna meet him again, or will it just be Marinette. I find it annoying that she gets everything on a silver platter while he is being left out. They're supposed to be partners, but doesn't think once of telling him what she discovered about the book or Master Fu.

      I liked Adrien finally being fed up with Chloé and taking a more drastic approach of telling her off, and she listen to him and the butler, because his friendship means that much to her. And she saves Ladybug and help her and is not being a load like in Antibug. Chloé and Adrien moments are quite cute, and I see that a lot of her issues seems to be from her mom leaving when she was very young and must have come back since then. I think Adrien can sympathise partly because they've been friends so long and also because he lost his mom too and now knows how it's like. That Butler is too kind. Adrien is too kind. And Chloé is finally showing a human side. I wonder where Lila was, she wasn't invited to the party or wasn't punished.

      I hope we'll see Kagami and Luka soon, I don't want to wait 8 episodes before they show up.

      Please read everyone else's responses... You're not the only person who thinks this way, multiple people have criticised Marinette's behaviour and others have tried to explain it. The phrase "am I the only one who...." is such a massive pet peeve of mine. In TV tropes terms, it's one of my hardest berserk buttons. Marinette doesn't tell Cat Noir about Master Fu because they aren't supposed to know about him. "I know you told me never to bring her here again" is what Tikki says when they enter, so Marinette is rightly keeping her mouth shut about Master Fu until she has permission to tell Cat Noir about him. It's not her place to tell him. It can also be assumed Plagg went to see Master Fu in "Princess Fragrance" because Adrien doesn't come back to school while Marinette does. Plagg likely got sick, too, but Adrien took care of him immediately. Right now, Cat Noir has no reason to know about Master Fu, nor does he have the permission to know.

      Marinette is going to get "everything on a silver platter" as long as she's the lead character of the show, because she's going to be the one who finds stuff out like that. I would have rathered Adrien find out who Hawk Moth is and have Ladybug dismiss it because of who his son is and her admiration for Gabriel. But I wasn't expecting that because he's not the protagonist, he's the deutragonist. Adrien/Cat Noir's role needs to be expanded before he'll be allowed to learn stuff before she does.

      I think she criticised Cat Noir's relief because it puts the suspicion back on Adrien if it can't be Gabriel and as we know first hand from the real world, it's pretty flimsy to assume that because he got akumatised, it's impossible for him to be Hawk Moth. I think she doesn't want either of them to be Hawk Moth, but of the two, she'd rather it be Gabriel.

      As to why Lila wasn't there, Chloe may just not have Lila's number, since she was texting the invite to people one by one.

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    • Chi of Darkness wrote: Am I the only one who thinks Marinette was a bit hypocritical and stupid in The Collector? Doesn't trust the guy who guards the Miraculous and gave her hers with the fact that might knows who is Hawk Moth just because she thinks it's the guy she loves, then gets relieved when she hears the book is his's dad to immediatly move suspicions on Gabriel, not even thinking that if Adrien was Hawk Moth, he could have just lied about the book being his dad's to avoid suspicion, then not thinking Hawk Moth can use his powers on himself, then chastise Chat Noir for him being relieved that Gabriel isn't Hawk Moth, despite herself doing that earlier in the episode by being relieved that Adrien isn't Hawk Moth without thinking that Hawk Moth being his dad isn't any better. The hypocritical part comes back in Doudou Villain with her not wanting to do anything with Chloé or her party only to immediatly change her mind as soon as Adrien is in the picture, and being annoyed to being compared to Chloé despite doing many similar things like her in the episode and the previous season. I think Adrien's behavior was more being reasonnable, with him dealing with the revelation that his dad is probably his ennemi, having to fight him, not being allowed back to school, and being kept in the dark about Master Fu. Seriously, is he gonna meet him again, or will it just be Marinette. I find it annoying that she gets everything on a silver platter while he is being left out. They're supposed to be partners, but doesn't think once of telling him what she discovered about the book or Master Fu.

      You're right, Marinette is being very childish, but I don't think much has changed since Season 1 (which makes sense, seeing that this season starts exactly after the end of the first).

      Marinette definetly needs to show some growth right now, so all we can hope for is that, for once, she gets punished for acting childishly instead of having everything always forgiven.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Chi of Darkness wrote:
      Am I the only one who thinks Marinette was a bit hypocritical and stupid in The Collector? Doesn't trust the guy who guards the Miraculous and gave her hers with the fact that might knows who is Hawk Moth just because she thinks it's the guy she loves, then gets relieved when she hears the book is his's dad to immediatly move suspicions on Gabriel, not even thinking that if Adrien was Hawk Moth, he could have just lied about the book being his dad's to avoid suspicion, then not thinking Hawk Moth can use his powers on himself, then chastise Chat Noir for him being relieved that Gabriel isn't Hawk Moth, despite herself doing that earlier in the episode by being relieved that Adrien isn't Hawk Moth without thinking that Hawk Moth being his dad isn't any better. The hypocritical part comes back in Doudou Villain with her not wanting to do anything with Chloé or her party only to immediatly change her mind as soon as Adrien is in the picture, and being annoyed to being compared to Chloé despite doing many similar things like her in the episode and the previous season. I think Adrien's behavior was more being reasonnable, with him dealing with the revelation that his dad is probably his ennemi, having to fight him, not being allowed back to school, and being kept in the dark about Master Fu. Seriously, is he gonna meet him again, or will it just be Marinette. I find it annoying that she gets everything on a silver platter while he is being left out. They're supposed to be partners, but doesn't think once of telling him what she discovered about the book or Master Fu.

      I liked Adrien finally being fed up with Chloé and taking a more drastic approach of telling her off, and she listen to him and the butler, because his friendship means that much to her. And she saves Ladybug and help her and is not being a load like in Antibug. Chloé and Adrien moments are quite cute, and I see that a lot of her issues seems to be from her mom leaving when she was very young and must have come back since then. I think Adrien can sympathise partly because they've been friends so long and also because he lost his mom too and now knows how it's like. That Butler is too kind. Adrien is too kind. And Chloé is finally showing a human side. I wonder where Lila was, she wasn't invited to the party or wasn't punished.

      I hope we'll see Kagami and Luka soon, I don't want to wait 8 episodes before they show up.

      Please read everyone else's responses... You're not the only person who thinks this way, multiple people have criticised Marinette's behaviour and others have tried to explain it. The phrase "am I the only one who...." is such a massive pet peeve of mine. In TV tropes terms, it's one of my hardest berserk buttons. Marinette doesn't tell Cat Noir about Master Fu because they aren't supposed to know about him. "I know you told me never to bring her here again" is what Tikki says when they enter, so Marinette is rightly keeping her mouth shut about Master Fu until she has permission to tell Cat Noir about him. It's not her place to tell him. It can also be assumed Plagg went to see Master Fu in "Princess Fragrance" because Adrien doesn't come back to school while Marinette does. Plagg likely got sick, too, but Adrien took care of him immediately. Right now, Cat Noir has no reason to know about Master Fu, nor does he have the permission to know.

      Marinette is going to get "everything on a silver platter" as long as she's the lead character of the show, because she's going to be the one who finds stuff out like that. I would have rathered Adrien find out who Hawk Moth is and have Ladybug dismiss it because of who his son is and her admiration for Gabriel. But I wasn't expecting that because he's not the protagonist, he's the deutragonist. Adrien/Cat Noir's role needs to be expanded before he'll be allowed to learn stuff before she does.

      I think she criticised Cat Noir's relief because it puts the suspicion back on Adrien if it can't be Gabriel and as we know first hand from the real world, it's pretty flimsy to assume that because he got akumatised, it's impossible for him to be Hawk Moth. I think she doesn't want either of them to be Hawk Moth, but of the two, she'd rather it be Gabriel.

      As to why Lila wasn't there, Chloe may just not have Lila's number, since she was texting the invite to people one by one.

      Um, I'm the first to mention Marinette's hypocrisy and stupidity in THIS discussion, everyone else talked about Chloé and Nath and her redemption. Not really Marinette being a hypocrite and sidetracked. Have you read the rest of the comments in THIS discussion? And sorry if it's a pet reeves of yours, but I didn't know that, but no need to lose our heads over it. On another note, I'm glad to meet another TV Tropes fan. I go on that site everyday many many times a day. It does say a lot of what I think about the characters, such as Marinette becoming more stupid when Adrien is around or in something.

      But Ladybug criticising Chat Noir's relief just because she doesn't want to believe it's Adrien is pretty much hypocritical, since she was just as relieved that it was his dad and not him that could be Hawk Moth earlier. And Chat Noir is Gabriel's son, so he got better reasons than her to not wanting him being the supervillain he fights on a regular basis (who likes fighting their parents in potentionally lethal fights?), while she's just upset that her crush and her favorite fashion designer who's also her crush's dad is a bit more shallow. Gabriel is Adrien only known relative whom he has, his mom is god knows where, and we know nothing of if he has grand parents or uncles, aunts or cousins. If Gabriel is Hawk Moth and get arrested, who takes care of Adrien? I doubt Nathatlie and the Gorilla can take him.

      I wonder if she really has Lila's number, if she has Marinette's who's been victim of her bullying for 4 years plus the rest of the school despite nobody liking her and her not liking them back, I don't get why she wouldn't have Lila's. Isn't that illogical? 

      And yes I know that Marinette is the lead, but she and Adrien have the 2 most powerful miraculous, so I think they should be treated equally if they're considered 2 halves of the same. Yin and Yang. Creation and Destruction. He's not a sidekick, he saved her many times in the most critical moments otherwise she would have been a goner, which is why the show is still on, otherwise she would have been dead since Time Breaker. Give the guy a bit more credit, he has much more going on than her, he can do so much, but it's not explored enough, instead we get Marinette failing at the most basic thing of talking to him or using phones properly without panicking at the slightest things for no reasons.

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    • Chi of Darkness wrote:

      Um, I'm the first to mention Marinette's hypocrisy and stupidity in THIS discussion, everyone else talked about Chloé and Nath and her redemption. Not really Marinette being a hypocrite and sidetracked. Have you read the rest of the comments in THIS discussion? And sorry if it's a pet reeves of yours, but I didn't know that, but no need to lose our heads over it. On another note, I'm glad to meet another TV Tropes fan. I go on that site everyday many many times a day. It does say a lot of what I think about the characters, such as Marinette becoming more stupid when Adrien is around or in something.

      But Ladybug criticising Chat Noir's relief just because she doesn't want to believe it's Adrien is pretty much hypocritical, since she was just as relieved that it was his dad and not him that could be Hawk Moth earlier. And Chat Noir is Gabriel's son, so he got better reasons than her to not wanting him being the supervillain he fights on a regular basis (who likes fighting their parents in potentionally lethal fights?), while she's just upset that her crush and her favorite fashion designer who's also her crush's dad is a bit more shallow. Gabriel is Adrien only known relative whom he has, his mom is god knows where, and we know nothing of if he has grand parents or uncles, aunts or cousins. If Gabriel is Hawk Moth and get arrested, who takes care of Adrien? I doubt Nathatlie and the Gorilla can take him.

      I wonder if she really has Lila's number, if she has Marinette's who's been victim of her bullying for 4 years plus the rest of the school despite nobody liking her and her not liking them back, I don't get why she wouldn't have Lila's. Isn't that illogical? 

      And yes I know that Marinette is the lead, but she and Adrien have the 2 most powerful miraculous, so I think they should be treated equally if they're considered 2 halves of the same. Yin and Yang. Creation and Destruction. He's not a sidekick, he saved her many times in the most critical moments otherwise she would have been a goner, which is why the show is still on, otherwise she would have been dead since Time Breaker. Give the guy a bit more credit, he has much more going on than her, he can do so much, but it's not explored enough, instead we get Marinette failing at the most basic thing of talking to him or using phones properly without panicking at the slightest things for no reasons.

      Hm..? I swear someone brought up Marinette's poor choices here. Perhaps I was thinking of the previous episode? I'm positive multiple people have criticised her actions in both episodes. Regardless, I apologise for my mistake. I have read everyone's comments, but I've been all over this site today, and on TV Tropes editing the WMG page to align with current information. I must have been confused.

      Marinette doesn't exactly know why he was relieved, so she might not haven't even picked up that was the emotion he was feeling. I think she's not thinking ahead, to be fair to Marinette. She's not thinking of the implications of Hawk Moth being Adrien's dad and where that would leave Adrien, she's just glad she's not in love with Hawk Moth. Plus, Nathalie and the Gorilla already do most of the work taking care of Adrien. He doesn't seem to often see his father, something I expect Marinette might know.

      Well it makes more sense than she just didn't invite Lila, I think. Keep in mind that Marinette and Alya also have Chloe's number, because they can tell when she texts them. In fact, everyone in the class knows when Chloe texts them. At some point, they all exchanged numbers with Chloe. So she may not have Lila's for some reason. It may be because Lila is not in their class. She's supposed to be according to this site, but she doesn't appear in the beginning of the episode, either, during the culinary lesson that seems to be mandatory, since Chloe's there. I don't think she actually ended up in Miss Bustier's class. She only has two openings, so I think those were saved for Kagami and Luka, assuming they're going to be more than one-off characters.

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    • There's a lot I really like about this episode. One of the smaller, sweet things was getting small character moments with a lot of characters, mainly the students. Getting to know the butler more was nice; he's a sweet guy that treats Chloé like a daughter or something, and he's not afraid to go goofy with the doll (maybe a bit too much). The poor firefighter was hilarious; I wonder if he'll appear again at some point. The students had a lot of great moments, though. Mylène's sweetness and willingness to see the good in Chloé makes me hope we see her more often than last season, Nathaniel gets to show off his lone status and his relatable but amusing reaction to Chloé's kindness, and while Kim still has a poor choice in crushes, give him credit for getting the courage to ask Chloé to dance and being willing to protect her from mind-controlled Chloé. Max and Alix playing video games, Rose, Juleka, and Mylène trying on Marinette's fashion designs, even Alya's top-notch wingman moments were lovely touches to the episode. I get that a lot of these students and lesser characters won't always get a lot of development in the ever-expanding world of Miraculous, but I'm thankful to get these tiny character moments and reactions to flesh them out more out of the limelight in a way.

      Even the villain was a lot of fun, being like a mind-controlling leech of sorts. Yes, Cat Noir getting mind-controlled again was frustrating, but it at least gave some moments for Chloé to shine. The mind-controlled party guests outside of him were really amusing too; I guess it would've gotten boring after a while and Cat Noir was clearly the strongest to go for, but I would have loved to see more shenanigans with that. For being a battle dedicated to almost one-third of the episode, it was still fun and worth a watch.

      Also, of course, this was a good episode for developing Chloé. She doesn't necessarily change in any way, as her sense of good is still warped and she still treats people rather poorly (at least she insulted people in a "kind" way at the end?). However, I love all the pieces and instances of hope. We got more info without a single word about Chloé's mother, giving some explanation why Chloé turned out the way she is, and we got better understanding of her childhood with that hard dilemma, Adrien as her young friend, and Mr. Cuddly. She didn't keep her faulty facade of kindness up for long, and she still has little understanding of what she does wrong, but she at least listened to her butler, and at the end, she forgave him while doing at least one kind thing of inviting Tom, her enemy's father, to finish teaching the cooking lesson. Of course, the moments helping Ladybug were excellent. Her sense of pride and selfishness were there, but they show she can get her hands dirty for a cause she supports, and when her heart's in the right-er place, she is a good ally. Overall, she hasn't officially started her redemption by any means, but this episode showed that there are seeds that can grow a mighty hero worth working alongside Ladybug and Cat Noir if Chloé truly sees her flaws and wants to change in the future.

      Finally, can we all appreciate Hawk Moth? Now that we know who he is, his actions and motivations add a lot to understanding him, and while he may not have cared much for Chloé outside his villainous work, he's fully aware of her use and intends to take advantage of it every time. He even trusted her awfulness enough to send out an akuma before any damage by her had been done. I wonder how he'll react if Chloé's akuma-creating consistency dies down over time because she begins to change.

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    • I liked the episode overall and I'm liking the general focus on characters rather than villains. Season 1 was much more focused on the monster of the week, but for the past two episodes the akumatized villain was the B-Plot instead of the A-Plot, which I think gives each episode more identity.

      Small rant: This marks the sixth time Cat Noir turns evil or is otherwise useless. That equals almost a quarter of the released episodes. I'm okay with "Pixelator" since Marinette also became unable to help at one point too, and without Cat Noir's smart thinking she wouldn't have been able to beat the villain. But, at this point, I'm growing quite sick of Cat Noir being useless to help defeat the akuma as much has he has been, to be totally honest. I understand he's the inferior hero of the pair but at this point he's been used as a tool, doesn't know what's going on while Ladybug issues her plan alone, or has Ladybug save him last minute way too much. It feels like Ladybug would be in a better situation without Cat Noir dragging her down. The episodes where they both know what's going on and work together are vastly superior in my opinion, cause their teamwork dynamic is fun and nice. Also, would it be too much to ask to just let him lead the way for one episode? He almost had that in "Princess Fragrance" until he was turned evil. /rant over

      To get back on topic, since that was partially but not totally related to the episode, here is the stuff I quite liked:

      • The fashion show part was fun! It's nice seeing some of the classmates out of school, since that's rare.
      • Acknowledgment of Nath's existence was nice to see.
      • Shipping stuff:
        • Nino texting Alya about him attending the party the second after he got the invite and them slow dancing together was fantastic.
        • Mylene and Ivan dancing together in the background was also exciting to see.
        • Marinette and Adrien developments!
      • So much information/development on Chloe's character and past, plus her mom getting pictured! I have theory her meanness is directly tied to her mom leaving, since that was pretty heavily implied by her memories. Also why her only genuine friend besides Sabrina is Adrien, who was friends with Chloe prior to her mom leaving.
      • The dynamic with Chloe and the butler was sweet. It's nice to know that he genuinely cares for her.
      • Speaking of the butler, it was unclear but I'm pretty sure Chloe started using his actual name at the end as a sign of kindness. We can't put it on his page without confirmation, but I hope I'm correct!
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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Chi of Darkness wrote:

      Um, I'm the first to mention Marinette's hypocrisy and stupidity in THIS discussion, everyone else talked about Chloé and Nath and her redemption. Not really Marinette being a hypocrite and sidetracked. Have you read the rest of the comments in THIS discussion? And sorry if it's a pet reeves of yours, but I didn't know that, but no need to lose our heads over it. On another note, I'm glad to meet another TV Tropes fan. I go on that site everyday many many times a day. It does say a lot of what I think about the characters, such as Marinette becoming more stupid when Adrien is around or in something.

      But Ladybug criticising Chat Noir's relief just because she doesn't want to believe it's Adrien is pretty much hypocritical, since she was just as relieved that it was his dad and not him that could be Hawk Moth earlier. And Chat Noir is Gabriel's son, so he got better reasons than her to not wanting him being the supervillain he fights on a regular basis (who likes fighting their parents in potentionally lethal fights?), while she's just upset that her crush and her favorite fashion designer who's also her crush's dad is a bit more shallow. Gabriel is Adrien only known relative whom he has, his mom is god knows where, and we know nothing of if he has grand parents or uncles, aunts or cousins. If Gabriel is Hawk Moth and get arrested, who takes care of Adrien? I doubt Nathatlie and the Gorilla can take him.

      I wonder if she really has Lila's number, if she has Marinette's who's been victim of her bullying for 4 years plus the rest of the school despite nobody liking her and her not liking them back, I don't get why she wouldn't have Lila's. Isn't that illogical? 

      And yes I know that Marinette is the lead, but she and Adrien have the 2 most powerful miraculous, so I think they should be treated equally if they're considered 2 halves of the same. Yin and Yang. Creation and Destruction. He's not a sidekick, he saved her many times in the most critical moments otherwise she would have been a goner, which is why the show is still on, otherwise she would have been dead since Time Breaker. Give the guy a bit more credit, he has much more going on than her, he can do so much, but it's not explored enough, instead we get Marinette failing at the most basic thing of talking to him or using phones properly without panicking at the slightest things for no reasons.

      Hm..? I swear someone brought up Marinette's poor choices here. Perhaps I was thinking of the previous episode? I'm positive multiple people have criticised her actions in both episodes. Regardless, I apologise for my mistake. I have read everyone's comments, but I've been all over this site today, and on TV Tropes editing the WMG page to align with current information. I must have been confused.

      Marinette doesn't exactly know why he was relieved, so she might not haven't even picked up that was the emotion he was feeling. I think she's not thinking ahead, to be fair to Marinette. She's not thinking of the implications of Hawk Moth being Adrien's dad and where that would leave Adrien, she's just glad she's not in love with Hawk Moth. Plus, Nathalie and the Gorilla already do most of the work taking care of Adrien. He doesn't seem to often see his father, something I expect Marinette might know.

      Well it makes more sense than she just didn't invite Lila, I think. Keep in mind that Marinette and Alya also have Chloe's number, because they can tell when she texts them. In fact, everyone in the class knows when Chloe texts them. At some point, they all exchanged numbers with Chloe. So she may not have Lila's for some reason. It may be because Lila is not in their class. She's supposed to be according to this site, but she doesn't appear in the beginning of the episode, either, during the culinary lesson that seems to be mandatory, since Chloe's there. I don't think she actually ended up in Miss Bustier's class. She only has two openings, so I think those were saved for Kagami and Luka, assuming they're going to be more than one-off characters.

      Apologies accepted. I've been all over the site and TV Tropes for most of the day too, so I can get all the information and more details that I haven't thought about. 

      I still don't get why in the universe everyone's got Chloé's number and vice versa. I get Adrien and Sabrina, but the rest of the class, Marinett, Alya and everyone else, not really. Well, Mylène and Rose are that nice, Juleka might have because Rose asked her, Kim has a crush on Chloé, but the others, no clue at all.

      I find Kim quite brave to invite Chloé to dance despite what she did to him in Dark Cupid. Must be because he isn't attracted to her wealth or looks, because her personnality makes her so unlikable that you wouldn't want to date her even if she is one of the prettiest and richest girls of Paris. So maybe he thinks that if Adrien of all people is friends with her, she must not be that bad? I dunno? Maybe? I wish we had the answer in Dark Cupid of why he was attracted to her, because for him to still go after her after her cruel refusal plus all the crap she pulls on people on a daily basis, he must think she can still be good somewhere.

      Loved Hawk Moth in both episodes, in the Collector I liked how he acted as an akumatized villain, and him being worried about Adrien at the end must means he must have been blinded by rage if he thought he went after his own son, and he looked terrified. In the end, he didn't get the miraculouses, but he got suspicions off his back, his book back and gets away with all of it, so not completely for nothing. And Nathalie knows, I wonder what he did to get her to work for him, he threathened her, or she just doesn't care, or as long as Adrien is out of it she doesn't care, he said he could grant her her wish or something? I wonder if the Gorilla is on to it too? And Hawk Moth in Doudou Villain, sending an akuma to the party just because it's Chloé's and he knows she'll upset somebody is so hilarious. He looks so baffled when the akuma turns around a couple of time, and wonders what's wrong with her. Hahahaha! This is gold!

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    • Yes, that's exactly right. Both of these episodes are wonderful for their being character-focused, not focused on the villain. It also makes it seem like Ladybug and Cat Noir are getting better at fighting, though I wholeheartedly agree that Cat Noir needs to stop being decomissioned so often and Ladybug needs to get it once in a while. I definitely want Cat Noir to lead, even if it's a forced thing like Ladybug gets her yo-yo nicked at the start of the fight, the villain is counting on her and Cat Noir's usual tactics so they have to switch roles, or she can't do anything because the akuma completely incapacitated her like usually happens to Cat Noir (all he has to do I think is get the akumatised item away from them for a time for them to detransform. I have no proof so far, but it's certainly an idea).

      I think everyone in the class must have exchanged numbers at one point. They all have get-togethers, even with Chloe, so it might just be a courtesy thing. As to Nathalie... I do think she's in on it of her own volition. People involved by threats and force are not trustworthy, but he clearly trusts her enough to tell her. There's no need for her to know unless she's been in on it from the start. I think she knows what his plan is and accepts it for what it is. Whatever it is, it's clearly important enough he'll willingly put Adrien in danger.

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    • Does anyone else think that the intimate dance between Adrien and Marinette was a bit strange?

      Or is it just a cultural difference thing because from where I live, high school boys will be iffy to the amount of proximity that Adrien and Marinette had towards the end of that slow dance (unless they're attracted to the girl)

      Of course, it's different if we assume that Adrien is actually quite attracted to Marinette despite him seemingly not realizing it. 

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    • Like most of the people on this thread already said, I'm quite happy that they're putting more focus on character development. And after "Despair Bear", I'm starting to think that, just a vey little bit, Chloé might deserve the bee miraculous after all.

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    • Lliania wrote:
      Does anyone else think that the intimate dance between Adrien and Marinette was a bit strange?

      Or is it just a cultural difference thing because from where I live, high school boys will be iffy to the amount of proximity that Adrien and Marinette had towards the end of that slow dance (unless they're attracted to the girl)

      Of course, it's different if we assume that Adrien is actually quite attracted to Marinette despite him seemingly not realizing it. 

      I think he knows, or suspects, she's Ladybug. It's not as if she hasn't dropped dozens of hints, but observe his actions in "Horrificator", specifically the part where they find the victims caught by the titular akuma. Ladybug calls out for Adrien in a panic and Cat Noir responds and gets this wicked grin on his face right before asking, still using Adrien's pitch, "What about Marinette?" and Ladybug doesn't pretend to be Marinette, she just confirms everyone's there. But pay close attention to Cat Noir's voice when he says "What about Marinette?". His tone of voice strikes me as odd. And it's not just in English- in most of the other languages you can watch it on on Netflix, his tone is not concerned. It's the tone of one suggesting something. It's goading. Like he's trying to trick her. Listen to the way his voice goes up at the end of the question and combine it with that grin of his. It's a weird little scene. And he may have noticed that Marinette was not among those freed from the Horrificator's goo. That episode also had Ladybug knowing things that he knows full well Ladybug was not around to know, like that the monster is Mylene, about Mylene's special song, and why she was akumatised. Ladybug also calls Adrien her friend before Ladybug has actually met him. Cat Noir is pretty careful to not use names of his classmates until he's seen them multiple times when transformed. Ladybug is not that careful in the slightest, because I think she just assumes Cat Noir goes to a different school and won't entertain the idea that they might know each other, something I think Cat Noir brings up twice. I know he mentions it once, but I feel he brings it up a different time. The fact that she won't even consider that they know each other in real life has her letting her guard down around him and revealing that she knows people and things Ladybug should not know.

      He has to have her figured out by now, or at the very least he has his suspicions. He starts to go out of his way to spend time with her, after all. His instinct when she bumps into him isn't to ask if she's okay like he would have before (like in "Princess Fragrance", which I think is one from earlier in the school year), it's to ask her to dance and then he pulls her off to dance without waiting much for a reply. He then approaches her after the baking lesson to try her macarons. He doesn't approach anyone else. He singles her out. I genuinely think he's at the very least suspicious she's Ladybug.

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    • Randomness Unlimited wrote:
      Like most of the people on this thread already said, I'm quite happy that they're putting more focus on character development. And after "Despair Bear", I'm starting to think that, just a vey little bit, Chloé might deserve the bee miraculous after all.

      I still believe the Bee is meant to help people like Chloé become better people. Once she proves she can change one more time (so far she's done it twice), she earns the right to bear the Miraculous that ultimately forces her to change if she wants to keep it. This I think because Chloé wouldn't be Chloé without her, well, queen bee attitude, so she'd have to still have it while bearing a Miraculous.

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    • Look there the same people
      Imagesea22
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    • Roseyheart wrote:
      Look there the same people
      Imagesea22

      Eh, it's a schoolwide cloning problem that's never addressed, I wouldn't thing too much on it.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:

      I think he knows, or suspects, she's Ladybug. It's not as if she hasn't dropped dozens of hints, but observe his actions in "Horrificator", specifically the part where they find the victims caught by the titular akuma. Ladybug calls out for Adrien in a panic and Cat Noir responds and gets this wicked grin on his face right before asking, still using Adrien's pitch, "What about Marinette?" and Ladybug doesn't pretend to be Marinette, she just confirms everyone's there. But pay close attention to Cat Noir's voice when he says "What about Marinette?". His tone of voice strikes me as odd. And it's not just in English- in most of the other languages you can watch it on on Netflix, his tone is not concerned. It's the tone of one suggesting something. It's goading. Like he's trying to trick her. Listen to the way his voice goes up at the end of the question and combine it with that grin of his. It's a weird little scene. And he may have noticed that Marinette was not among those freed from the Horrificator's goo. That episode also had Ladybug knowing things that he knows full well Ladybug was not around to know, like that the monster is Mylene, about Mylene's special song, and why she was akumatised. Ladybug also calls Adrien her friend before Ladybug has actually met him. Cat Noir is pretty careful to not use names of his classmates until he's seen them multiple times when transformed. Ladybug is not that careful in the slightest, because I think she just assumes Cat Noir goes to a different school and won't entertain the idea that they might know each other, something I think Cat Noir brings up twice. I know he mentions it once, but I feel he brings it up a different time. The fact that she won't even consider that they know each other in real life has her letting her guard down around him and revealing that she knows people and things Ladybug should not know.

      He has to have her figured out by now, or at the very least he has his suspicions. He starts to go out of his way to spend time with her, after all. His instinct when she bumps into him isn't to ask if she's okay like he would have before (like in "Princess Fragrance", which I think is one from earlier in the school year), it's to ask her to dance and then he pulls her off to dance without waiting much for a reply. He then approaches her after the baking lesson to try her macarons. He doesn't approach anyone else. He singles her out. I genuinely think he's at the very least suspicious she's Ladybug.

      That's a rather interesting theory. Guess it's time to rewatch Horrificator. 

      I do remember Marinette not being careful with the names of her classmates on that episode but at the same time, I don't recall anyone being suspicious of her in that episode (that tone of Chat Noir as they look for her eluded me) so I thought that maybe the magic has something to do with it (because for one it has always been strange that no one seemed to suspect her as Ladybug when she doesn't change her appearance after transformation at all).

      Now this is when I wish season 1 actually has a proper chronological order. It's a bit difficult to note how their interactions change since I don't know when the episode is actually taking place.

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    • Lliania wrote:

      That's a rather interesting theory. Guess it's time to rewatch Horrificator. 

      I do remember Marinette not being careful with the names of her classmates on that episode but at the same time, I don't recall anyone being suspicious of her in that episode (that tone of Chat Noir as they look for her eluded me) so I thought that maybe the magic has something to do with it (because for one it has always been strange that no one seemed to suspect her as Ladybug when she doesn't change her appearance after transformation at all).

      Now this is when I wish season 1 actually has a proper chronological order. It's a bit difficult to note how their interactions change since I don't know when the episode is actually taking place.

      It's not just that episode where she's not careful- it's pretty much every episode where she freely namedrops classmates. "Horrificator" happens at a point where it's not weird that she knows most of her classmates names as Ladybug, so it's not odd to me that they're not put out. What I find odd is that none of them noticed neither Adrien nor Marinette were among those recovered after Horrificator was defeated. Based on Adrien and Marinette's relationship, where she's not nearly so awkward around him, it's probably one of the ones that takes place in May. And there's a lot that take place in May, but a bit of information I learnt told me I need to re-work what I have, because "Rogercop" seems to have been on 1 June, not 1 May (1 June is Parent's Day, while 1 May is a holiday). However, "Horrificator" has to come after "Animan" which is after "Rogercop" based on how Nino acts. in "Rogercop" heos obviously got a crush on Marinette, but in "Horrificator" he seems to be in a relationship with Alya, meaning "Animan" happened between the two.

      It's not too hard to figure out the timeline with so many episodes having dates in them or referencing things from past episodes. But I do need to re-work what I have so far.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:

      It's not just that episode where she's not careful- it's pretty much every episode where she freely namedrops classmates. "Horrificator" happens at a point where it's not weird that she knows most of her classmates names as Ladybug, so it's not odd to me that they're not put out. What I find odd is that none of them noticed neither Adrien nor Marinette were among those recovered after Horrificator was defeated. Based on Adrien and Marinette's relationship, where she's not nearly so awkward around him, it's probably one of the ones that takes place in May. And there's a lot that take place in May, but a bit of information I learnt told me I need to re-work what I have, because "Rogercop" seems to have been on 1 June, not 1 May (1 June is Parent's Day, while 1 May is a holiday). However, "Horrificator" has to come after "Animan" which is after "Rogercop" based on how Nino acts. in "Rogercop" heos obviously got a crush on Marinette, but in "Horrificator" he seems to be in a relationship with Alya, meaning "Animan" happened between the two.

      It's not too hard to figure out the timeline with so many episodes having dates in them or referencing things from past episodes. But I do need to re-work what I have so far.

      I know she does the name dropping thing often. From the very beginning of her stint as Ladybug she already does that with both Mylene and Ivan so I couldn't help but think that maybe magic was involved in blurring their memory when it comes to details that may allow others to know their identities.

      On another note on the Horrificator episode, I find it quite odd that no one even seems to comment/ask why Ladybug AND Chat Noir are both in the school when it's supposed to be inaccessible due to the hardened monster goo. I rewatched it a bit and I think that's one of the primary reasons as to why I chucked everything to the potential "it's probably kwami magic" excuse. 

      On a completely unrelated note to Adrien potentially knowing Ladybug's real identity but related to "it's probably kwami magic," Dark Blade is one of the episodes that also stood out to me because Adrien was far away from the hotel when the akumatizing took place so it struck me as odd that no one seemed to point it out when he joins them at the end. And Marinette has his schedule memorized but she never batted an eyelash as well. 

      With regard to sorting out the timeline, I'm not really THAT invested in the show to do that for myself. I only recently picked up the series (around a month ago) so while things may be quite fresh from memory, I haven't become invested enough to actually place effort to sort out the dates on each episode and for the most part have only seen most of the episodes once (save for the ones that my nephews keep on rewatching)

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    • Lliania wrote:

      I know she does the name dropping thing often. From the very beginning of her stint as Ladybug she already does that with both Mylene and Ivan so I couldn't help but think that maybe magic was involved in blurring their memory when it comes to details that may allow others to know their identities.

      On another note on the Horrificator episode, I find it quite odd that no one even seems to comment/ask why Ladybug AND Chat Noir are both in the school when it's supposed to be inaccessible due to the hardened monster goo. I rewatched it a bit and I think that's one of the primary reasons as to why I chucked everything to the potential "it's probably kwami magic" excuse. 

      On a completely unrelated note to Adrien potentially knowing Ladybug's real identity but related to "it's probably kwami magic," Dark Blade is one of the episodes that also stood out to me because Adrien was far away from the hotel when the akumatizing took place so it struck me as odd that no one seemed to point it out when he joins them at the end. And Marinette has his schedule memorized but she never batted an eyelash as well. 

      With regard to sorting out the timeline, I'm not really THAT invested in the show to do that for myself. I only recently picked up the series (around a month ago) so while things may be quite fresh from memory, I haven't become invested enough to actually place effort to sort out the dates on each episode and for the most part have only seen most of the episodes once (save for the ones that my nephews keep on rewatching)

      I figured they assumed they got in before the monster goo sealed up the school. Its a logical thing to dedeuce.

      There's nothing stopping people figuring them out- Alya already said she thinks Adrien looks a lot like Cat Noir in I think "Lady Wifi", but Marinette dismissed it because she wants to deny it. Other people aren't around her as much so they don't see her dropping hints left and right like Cat Noir does. Adrien says he got turned into a knight, so they may have assumed he was one of the ones that was on top of the building or something. That's likely why they didn't question it.

      I have fun doing that kinda thing, but I realised I made a grave error, and that the series takes place in the 2013-2014 school year, not the 2014-2015, so I have to re-work a lot of things and now some things don't make any sense. Like one of the episodes that definitely has a date marker on it puts the kids at school... on a Sunday, which is kind of odd? But I guess it isn't a school day, either. It's "Mr Pigeon", and they seem to be at the school but not in school.

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    • as much people complain about marinette, there is actually a slight character development, as she had no problem with Chloe helping her out, in comparison to the anti-bug fiasco. 

      Also, people tend to forget that she still is a teen (around 13-15), thus all her faults (hypocrisy, judgement, etc) seems realistic and just because you suddently get magical superpowers, you're not going to get ultimate wisdom or transform to a perfect human being. it's actually quite refreshing to have a heroine who has faults and makes mistakes, and when i was marinette's age, i wasn't any better (and many peers that age as well).

      and let's not forget that since we are the viewer, we see the whole situation, the characters themself do not. like, it looks like marinette is a hypocrat for being happy that adrien wasn't hawkmoth while she chastise chat for being relieved that gabriel isn't HM. we as as the viewers know that gabriel is adriends father, thus his reaction is normal, ladybug however, not. so obviously she is going to be confused/mad/whatever. 

      and also about the phone numbers, but isn't it normal to have the numbers/contacts of the people in your class, eventhough you don't like them? most classes even have group chats on whatsapp/facebook/... and let's not forget that in dark cupid, chloe send a picture of kim to all of students, so they already have each others number.  i also think its noteworthy (or me overanalysing this) that chat doesn't call ladybug "my lady" in this episode. Is it because he might developed feelings for marinette during the dance,? or was it just a one episode thing?

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    • Roseyheart wrote:
      Look there the same people
      Imagesea22

      It's called: "Spend budget,, for more interesting characters - how Thomas Astruc said.

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    • Xoxoxoooo wrote:
      as much people complain about marinette, there is actually a slight character development, as she had no problem with Chloe helping her out, in comparison to the anti-bug fiasco. 

      Also, people tend to forget that she still is a teen (around 13-15), thus all her faults (hypocrisy, judgement, etc) seems realistic and just because you suddently get magical superpowers, you're not going to get ultimate wisdom or transform to a perfect human being. it's actually quite refreshing to have a heroine who has faults and makes mistakes, and when i was marinette's age, i wasn't any better (and many peers that age as well).

      and let's not forget that since we are the viewer, we see the whole situation, the characters themself do not. like, it looks like marinette is a hypocrat for being happy that adrien wasn't hawkmoth while she chastise chat for being relieved that gabriel isn't HM. we as as the viewers know that gabriel is adriends father, thus his reaction is normal, ladybug however, not. so obviously she is going to be confused/mad/whatever. 

      and also about the phone numbers, but isn't it normal to have the numbers/contacts of the people in your class, eventhough you don't like them? most classes even have group chats on whatsapp/facebook/... and let's not forget that in dark cupid, chloe send a picture of kim to all of students, so they already have each others number.  i also think its noteworthy (or me overanalysing this) that chat doesn't call ladybug "my lady" in this episode. Is it because he might developed feelings for marinette during the dance,? or was it just a one episode thing?

      But she caused 4 akumatizations because of her feelings for Adrien. Max because she decided to enter at the last second just to spend time with Adrien completely disregarding Max's feelings for her own selfish desire, which wasn't really cool of her no matter how many people tell that she was the best gamer, you enter a tournament to win it, not spend time with your crush, I'm retty sure that if Adrien hadn't made it to the finals she wouldn't have entered, Santa Claus because she completely went overboard despite Adrien being right in front of his house and him downright telling her he isn't a villain, but she didn't believe him because apparently she knows when they are villains, right, Lila because she was jealous, and Gabriel as a result of stalking Lila and Adrien because of her jealousy, since it led to Tikki to tell her to take the book, leading Gabriel to akumatize himself to throws off suspisions about him. Manon is the only akumatization she made that didn't have anything related to Adrien, just because she never let Manon win, even less let her play as Ladybug, which isn't a good behavior coming from a babysitter, also her deciding to go against her charge's mother because she apparently doesn't have the guts of standing up to a 4 years old puppy eyes, come on. After 4 akumatizations caused by her feelings for Adrien, you would think she start seeing this as a problem, heck even Tikki didn't say anything. And then has the gals to lie to Master Fu saying she doesn't love him at all, while Tikki next to her making a "oh please" face, before confirming she likes him indeed. I'm starting to get tired of her feelings being more dangerous than anything else and then get away with it, it's not a nice message to send to kids. Right now the show seems to give the idea that stalking your crush is a good thing, and when things go wrong you'll get away with it at the end when everything is ok and done. No it's not!

      Ladybug didn't have a problem with Chloé's help because she just saved her from being cataclysmed in the face in the episode. She would have been dead if Chloé hadn't intervened, and she knows it. Which maybe is why she didn't have a problem with Chloé's help compared to Antibug where she was the load. 

      I never had the number of everyone who shared the same classes as me, even less the entire school, even thought I holded nothing again'st them and they were quite nice, but still. I wanna know how in the universe the entire school has her number and vice versa, it doesn't make sense for her to have the number of everyone, I get Sabrina and Adrien, but the others, no. 

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    • where i can watch this episode?

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    • Chi of Darkness wrote:

      But she caused 4 akumatizations because of her feelings for Adrien. Max because she decided to enter at the last second just to spend time with Adrien completely disregarding Max's feelings for her own selfish desire, which wasn't really cool of her no matter how many people tell that she was the best gamer, you enter a tournament to win it, not spend time with your crush, I'm retty sure that if Adrien hadn't made it to the finals she wouldn't have entered, Santa Claus because she completely went overboard despite Adrien being right in front of his house and him downright telling her he isn't a villain, but she didn't believe him because apparently she knows when they are villains, right, Lila because she was jealous, and Gabriel as a result of stalking Lila and Adrien because of her jealousy, since it led to Tikki to tell her to take the book, leading Gabriel to akumatize himself to throws off suspisions about him. Manon is the only akumatization she made that didn't have anything related to Adrien, just because she never let Manon win, even less let her play as Ladybug, which isn't a good behavior coming from a babysitter, also her deciding to go against her charge's mother because she apparently doesn't have the guts of standing up to a 4 years old puppy eyes, come on. After 4 akumatizations caused by her feelings for Adrien, you would think she start seeing this as a problem, heck even Tikki didn't say anything. And then has the gals to lie to Master Fu saying she doesn't love him at all, while Tikki next to her making a "oh please" face, before confirming she likes him indeed. I'm starting to get tired of her feelings being more dangerous than anything else and then get away with it, it's not a nice message to send to kids. Right now the show seems to give the idea that stalking your crush is a good thing, and when things go wrong you'll get away with it at the end when everything is ok and done. No it's not!

      Ladybug didn't have a problem with Chloé's help because she just saved her from being cataclysmed in the face in the episode. She would have been dead if Chloé hadn't intervened, and she knows it. Which maybe is why she didn't have a problem with Chloé's help compared to Antibug where she was the load. 

      I never had the number of everyone who shared the same classes as me, even less the entire school, even thought I holded nothing again'st them and they were quite nice, but still. I wanna know how in the universe the entire school has her number and vice versa, it doesn't make sense for her to have the number of everyone, I get Sabrina and Adrien, but the others, no. 

      Merlin's beard, you don't actually hate Marinette, do you?

      Ladybug also doesn't have a problem with Chloe helping when she clearly has control of the situation with Cat Noir being possessed at the end. "Chloe, if you'd be so kind". I think that might actually be the scene the other person was talking about.

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    • But she caused 4 akumatizations because of her feelings for Adrien. Max because she decided to enter at the last second just to spend time with Adrien completely disregarding Max's feelings for her own selfish desire, which wasn't really cool of her no matter how many people tell that she was the best gamer, you enter a tournament to win it, not spend time with your crush, I'm retty sure that if Adrien hadn't made it to the finals she wouldn't have entered, Santa Claus because she completely went overboard despite Adrien being right in front of his house and him downright telling her he isn't a villain, but she didn't believe him because apparently she knows when they are villains, right, Lila because she was jealous, and Gabriel as a result of stalking Lila and Adrien because of her jealousy, since it led to Tikki to tell her to take the book, leading Gabriel to akumatize himself to throws off suspisions about him. Manon is the only akumatization she made that didn't have anything related to Adrien, just because she never let Manon win, even less let her play as Ladybug, which isn't a good behavior coming from a babysitter, also her deciding to go against her charge's mother because she apparently doesn't have the guts of standing up to a 4 years old puppy eyes, come on. After 4 akumatizations caused by her feelings for Adrien, you would think she start seeing this as a problem, heck even Tikki didn't say anything. And then has the gals to lie to Master Fu saying she doesn't love him at all, while Tikki next to her making a "oh please" face, before confirming she likes him indeed. I'm starting to get tired of her feelings being more dangerous than anything else and then get away with it, it's not a nice message to send to kids. Right now the show seems to give the idea that stalking your crush is a good thing, and when things go wrong you'll get away with it at the end when everything is ok and done. No it's not!

      Ladybug didn't have a problem with Chloé's help because she just saved her from being cataclysmed in the face in the episode. She would have been dead if Chloé hadn't intervened, and she knows it. Which maybe is why she didn't have a problem with Chloé's help compared to Antibug where she was the load. 

      I never had the number of everyone who shared the same classes as me, even less the entire school, even thought I holded nothing again'st them and they were quite nice, but still. I wanna know how in the universe the entire school has her number and vice versa, it doesn't make sense for her to have the number of everyone, I get Sabrina and Adrien, but the others, no. 

      Gabriel's akumatazion isn't a result of marinette though? he akumatized himself to throw them off, and let's not forget that it was adrien, who stole the book, and then lila who stole the book again and threw it to the trash. Marinette wasn't even aware of the significance of this book. she only took the book because of Tikki.

      Santa was her fault, true, and for the other 2 i would say it's partly true. max was also a petty looser here, and in the real world the better one is going to win, not the one who wants it the most (and once again, she is 13-15! most of the kids around this age are still immature and don't think of the consequences). and lila was telling lies about her, the way she confronts her was cruel, but wouldn't you be mad as well when other people are telling lies abut you? let's not forget that copycat was chat's fault because of his jelousy and while marinette always learns her lessons and tries to be better, andrien couldn't get away as fast as possible. so it wouldn't be fair to harshly judge marinette, but let adrien go. feelings and crushes are a delicate thing when you are that young. this might be her first real crush and she might not understand how to handle it (and why should so openly declare her feeling to a random old man, who she just met for the 2nd time mind you, just because he is the guardian? and let's not forget that this is directly after volpina. she doesn't have time to process everything and to recover)  i also don't like her extrem stalkerish potration, especially with his timetable etc, but i think this is a nice ground for a future character development. compared to the earlier season 1 episodes, marinette seems to be much calmer around adrien now, so i hope she is going to loose this obsession this season. 

      but afterward, at the roof, ladybug could easily handle chat, but she still accepted chloe's help. compared to anti-bug, where she just throw chloe in the lift, without listening to her, i think this is a pretty good development, especially since marinette hates chloe. 

      i mean it's not really the entire school, more like her class, and as i said before, even in season 1 chloe had the number of her classmates already (as can be seen in dark cupid where she sends kim's foto to everyone). but yeah, having the contacts of your class members is pretty common and they do have many privat outings involving the whole class (including chloe), so it makes sense to have their number or a group chat or something. 

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    • Xoxoxoooo wrote:

      Gabriel's akumatazion isn't a result of marinette though? he akumatized himself to throw them off, and let's not forget that it was adrien, who stole the book, and then lila who stole the book again and threw it to the trash. Marinette wasn't even aware of the significance of this book. she only took the book because of Tikki.

      Santa was her fault, true, and for the other 2 i would say it's partly true. max was also a petty looser here, and in the real world the better one is going to win, not the one who wants it the most (and once again, she is 13-15! most of the kids around this age are still immature and don't think of the consequences). and lila was telling lies about her, the way she confronts her was cruel, but wouldn't you be mad as well when other people are telling lies abut you? let's not forget that copycat was chat's fault because of his jelousy and while marinette always learns her lessons and tries to be better, andrien couldn't get away as fast as possible. so it wouldn't be fair to harshly judge marinette, but let adrien go. feelings and crushes are a delicate thing when you are that young. this might be her first real crush and she might not understand how to handle it (and why should so openly declare her feeling to a random old man, who she just met for the 2nd time mind you, just because he is the guardian? and let's not forget that this is directly after volpina. she doesn't have time to process everything and to recover)  i also don't like her extrem stalkerish potration, especially with his timetable etc, but i think this is a nice ground for a future character development. compared to the earlier season 1 episodes, marinette seems to be much calmer around adrien now, so i hope she is going to loose this obsession this season. 

      but afterward, at the roof, ladybug could easily handle chat, but she still accepted chloe's help. compared to anti-bug, where she just throw chloe in the lift, without listening to her, i think this is a pretty good development, especially since marinette hates chloe. 

      i mean it's not really the entire school, more like her class, and as i said before, even in season 1 chloe had the number of her classmates already (as can be seen in dark cupid where she sends kim's foto to everyone). but yeah, having the contacts of your class members is pretty common and they do have many privat outings involving the whole class (including chloe), so it makes sense to have their number or a group chat or something. 

      It is wrong to blame Marinette for Gabriel's akumatisation, yes. Had Marinette not been stalking them (yes, I agree this is what she was doing out of petty jealousy), the only change is that the book wouldn't be in the garbage. Marinette had nothing at all to do with Gabriel's akumatisation. That was pretty much all Adrien. Regarding Max, and this cannot be stressed enough, Max was cheating or at least not playing fair- look at his glasses. That coding thing is not shown just from his point of view, but outside his glasses, too. He's cheating by reading the game's coding as he plays. It's not the same thing as Ladybug's Lucky Charm vision, where it's an art choice. He's not playing fair and he deserved to lose for it.

      Actually it seems like Chloe has the numbers of everyone in her class and most of Ms Mendeleiev's class. I expect what she has are years of having people's numbers in her phone as well as people with whom she shares other classes. Everyone in the class might have voluntarily exchanged numbers at the start of the year. From what we've seen, it's not weird that Chloe has everyone's number and everyone has hers, the weird thing is that Marinette doesn't have Adrien's number and he doesn't have hers. Because they seem to be the exception. So it's likely that Marinette and Alya hadn't exchanged numbers with Adrien during that time (maybe they ran out of time and Marinette's shyness stopped them from following up on it), but they exchanged numbers with everyone else. Alya probably got Adrien's number from Nino, and later gave him her number. So now Adrien and Marinette are the only ones who don't have each other's numbers.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:

      Xoxoxoooo wrote:

      Gabriel's akumatazion isn't a result of marinette though? he akumatized himself to throw them off, and let's not forget that it was adrien, who stole the book, and then lila who stole the book again and threw it to the trash. Marinette wasn't even aware of the significance of this book. she only took the book because of Tikki.

      Santa was her fault, true, and for the other 2 i would say it's partly true. max was also a petty looser here, and in the real world the better one is going to win, not the one who wants it the most (and once again, she is 13-15! most of the kids around this age are still immature and don't think of the consequences). and lila was telling lies about her, the way she confronts her was cruel, but wouldn't you be mad as well when other people are telling lies abut you? let's not forget that copycat was chat's fault because of his jelousy and while marinette always learns her lessons and tries to be better, andrien couldn't get away as fast as possible. so it wouldn't be fair to harshly judge marinette, but let adrien go. feelings and crushes are a delicate thing when you are that young. this might be her first real crush and she might not understand how to handle it (and why should so openly declare her feeling to a random old man, who she just met for the 2nd time mind you, just because he is the guardian? and let's not forget that this is directly after volpina. she doesn't have time to process everything and to recover)  i also don't like her extrem stalkerish potration, especially with his timetable etc, but i think this is a nice ground for a future character development. compared to the earlier season 1 episodes, marinette seems to be much calmer around adrien now, so i hope she is going to loose this obsession this season. 

      but afterward, at the roof, ladybug could easily handle chat, but she still accepted chloe's help. compared to anti-bug, where she just throw chloe in the lift, without listening to her, i think this is a pretty good development, especially since marinette hates chloe. 

      i mean it's not really the entire school, more like her class, and as i said before, even in season 1 chloe had the number of her classmates already (as can be seen in dark cupid where she sends kim's foto to everyone). but yeah, having the contacts of your class members is pretty common and they do have many privat outings involving the whole class (including chloe), so it makes sense to have their number or a group chat or something. 

      It is wrong to blame Marinette for Gabriel's akumatisation, yes. Had Marinette not been stalking them (yes, I agree this is what she was doing out of petty jealousy), the only change is that the book wouldn't be in the garbage. Marinette had nothing at all to do with Gabriel's akumatisation. That was pretty much all Adrien. Regarding Max, and this cannot be stressed enough, Max was cheating or at least not playing fair- look at his glasses. That coding thing is not shown just from his point of view, but outside his glasses, too. He's cheating by reading the game's coding as he plays. It's not the same thing as Ladybug's Lucky Charm vision, where it's an art choice. He's not playing fair and he deserved to lose for it.

      Actually it seems like Chloe has the numbers of everyone in her class and most of Ms Mendeleiev's class. I expect what she has are years of having people's numbers in her phone as well as people with whom she shares other classes. Everyone in the class might have voluntarily exchanged numbers at the start of the year. From what we've seen, it's not weird that Chloe has everyone's number and everyone has hers, the weird thing is that Marinette doesn't have Adrien's number and he doesn't have hers. Because they seem to be the exception. So it's likely that Marinette and Alya hadn't exchanged numbers with Adrien during that time (maybe they ran out of time and Marinette's shyness stopped them from following up on it), but they exchanged numbers with everyone else. Alya probably got Adrien's number from Nino, and later gave him her number. So now Adrien and Marinette are the only ones who don't have each other's numbers.

      Actually, we know that Mari has Adrien's number from the Copycat voicemail debacle.

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    • Shodowhater wrote:

      Thearomalady wrote:


      Xoxoxoooo wrote:

      Gabriel's akumatazion isn't a result of marinette though? he akumatized himself to throw them off, and let's not forget that it was adrien, who stole the book, and then lila who stole the book again and threw it to the trash. Marinette wasn't even aware of the significance of this book. she only took the book because of Tikki.

      Santa was her fault, true, and for the other 2 i would say it's partly true. max was also a petty looser here, and in the real world the better one is going to win, not the one who wants it the most (and once again, she is 13-15! most of the kids around this age are still immature and don't think of the consequences). and lila was telling lies about her, the way she confronts her was cruel, but wouldn't you be mad as well when other people are telling lies abut you? let's not forget that copycat was chat's fault because of his jelousy and while marinette always learns her lessons and tries to be better, andrien couldn't get away as fast as possible. so it wouldn't be fair to harshly judge marinette, but let adrien go. feelings and crushes are a delicate thing when you are that young. this might be her first real crush and she might not understand how to handle it (and why should so openly declare her feeling to a random old man, who she just met for the 2nd time mind you, just because he is the guardian? and let's not forget that this is directly after volpina. she doesn't have time to process everything and to recover)  i also don't like her extrem stalkerish potration, especially with his timetable etc, but i think this is a nice ground for a future character development. compared to the earlier season 1 episodes, marinette seems to be much calmer around adrien now, so i hope she is going to loose this obsession this season. 

      but afterward, at the roof, ladybug could easily handle chat, but she still accepted chloe's help. compared to anti-bug, where she just throw chloe in the lift, without listening to her, i think this is a pretty good development, especially since marinette hates chloe. 

      i mean it's not really the entire school, more like her class, and as i said before, even in season 1 chloe had the number of her classmates already (as can be seen in dark cupid where she sends kim's foto to everyone). but yeah, having the contacts of your class members is pretty common and they do have many privat outings involving the whole class (including chloe), so it makes sense to have their number or a group chat or something. 

      It is wrong to blame Marinette for Gabriel's akumatisation, yes. Had Marinette not been stalking them (yes, I agree this is what she was doing out of petty jealousy), the only change is that the book wouldn't be in the garbage. Marinette had nothing at all to do with Gabriel's akumatisation. That was pretty much all Adrien. Regarding Max, and this cannot be stressed enough, Max was cheating or at least not playing fair- look at his glasses. That coding thing is not shown just from his point of view, but outside his glasses, too. He's cheating by reading the game's coding as he plays. It's not the same thing as Ladybug's Lucky Charm vision, where it's an art choice. He's not playing fair and he deserved to lose for it.

      Actually it seems like Chloe has the numbers of everyone in her class and most of Ms Mendeleiev's class. I expect what she has are years of having people's numbers in her phone as well as people with whom she shares other classes. Everyone in the class might have voluntarily exchanged numbers at the start of the year. From what we've seen, it's not weird that Chloe has everyone's number and everyone has hers, the weird thing is that Marinette doesn't have Adrien's number and he doesn't have hers. Because they seem to be the exception. So it's likely that Marinette and Alya hadn't exchanged numbers with Adrien during that time (maybe they ran out of time and Marinette's shyness stopped them from following up on it), but they exchanged numbers with everyone else. Alya probably got Adrien's number from Nino, and later gave him her number. So now Adrien and Marinette are the only ones who don't have each other's numbers.

      Actually, we know that Mari has Adrien's number from the Copycat voicemail debacle.
      CC (60)

      Nope. She called from Alya's phone, and Adrien didn't have her number, meaning she got it from someone else, likely Nino. Pictured right is the phone after Marinette tossed it away after leaving her voicemail. Notice the charm on it- it's Alya's phone. Marinette's phone, iirc, is also white, not black.

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    • This episode was both amazing and a letdown at the same time. Don't kill me yet, let me explain!

      The letdown was that the akuma and respective fight was pretty much a repeat of Puppeteer. Despair Bear possesses people to do what he wants, and Cat Noir gets controlled AGAIN. When I saw the teaser I honestly hoped that it was Ladybug that was being controlled. I want to see what Cat does in that situation where he has to fight the one he loves, potentially hurting her; we know what Ladybug does by now. Also seeing him deal without Lucky Charm, or him making the trap himself, would be nice.

      That being said, the good COMPLETELY overshadows the bad. I am a sucker for redemption arcs, and Chloe's was amazing! Her still holding onto a teddy bear and sucking her thumb was adorable. We also get to see a little snippet of what happened to Mrs. Bourgeois (which wrenched my heat out). Finally, Adrien puts his foot down on her snobbish attitude, but gently and Adrien-like, instead of cussing her out like I've seen in some fanfictions. 

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    • Piggylady225 wrote:
      This episode was both amazing and a letdown at the same time. Don't kill me yet, let me explain!

      The letdown was that the akuma and respective fight was pretty much a repeat of Puppeteer. Despair Bear possesses people to do what he wants, and Cat Noir gets controlled AGAIN. When I saw the teaser I honestly hoped that it was Ladybug that was being controlled. I want to see what Cat does in that situation where he has to fight the one he loves, potentially hurting her; we know what Ladybug does by now. Also seeing him deal without Lucky Charm, or him making the trap himself, would be nice.

      That being said, the good COMPLETELY overshadows the bad. I am a sucker for redemption arcs, and Chloe's was amazing! Her still holding onto a teddy bear and sucking her thumb was adorable. We also get to see a little snippet of what happened to Mrs. Bourgeois (which wrenched my heat out). Finally, Adrien puts his foot down on her snobbish attitude, but gently and Adrien-like, instead of cussing her out like I've seen in some fanfictions. 

      To be fair, the akuma was, for once, not the main part of the episode, so it's less of a problem, to me, that they rehashed Puppeteer more or less. I think I would have complained if Ladybug had been controlled in this episode because it was for such a short fight. It also would have been an actual good chance to do it because they seem wary of having Ladybug be a victim of anything, but nobody could keep track of Despair Bear and it was such a short fight they could afford to have Ladybug mess up a little.

      Adrien's attitude in fanfics is always off from his actual attitude, where he's pretty much a jerk to her. It's why I prefer to write my own rather than read them. I also refuse to read fanfics with swearing in them where the source material doesn't have it. Second I see it I leave. I'm more accepting of when the cursing is mentioned in the narrative (that is it says "Ladybug cursed softly under her breath" or "Cat Noir swore loudly", not the narrator swears, because that's toned down and leaves you to pick what was actually said), but directly saying it really ticks me off because it takes me out of the world they're presenting to me.

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    • Four akumatizations? Oh wow! That's definitely a higher number than say, TEN. Personally, I think Chloe is gonna need a lot more redemption in season 2. I know Despair Bear is just one episode, and the path to redemption is not walked overnight, but I don't like that the moment she displays a small and grudging measure of kindness everyone suddenly forgives her for all her misdeeds. Go ahead and fight me on it, but the moment Chloe had Adrien's reassurance that they would always be friends, she walked straight over to the other students and started insulting their macaroons. Also, there is the small thing of deliberately calling the fire department, pinning it on Marinette, getting the whole school in trouble, and blackmailing Mr. Damocles so that she is the only one to escape punishment. And even after Adrien calls her out on it, her response was: So what? Maybe she'll grow up to be a good person one day, but it is a day that seems further and further away with each passing episode.

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    • Miraculous...es wrote:
      Four akumatizations? Oh wow! That's definitely a higher number than say, TEN. Personally, I think Chloe is gonna need a lot more redemption in season 2. I know Despair Bear is just one episode, and the path to redemption is not walked overnight, but I don't like that the moment she displays a small and grudging measure of kindness everyone suddenly forgives her for all her misdeeds. Go ahead and fight me on it, but the moment Chloe had Adrien's reassurance that they would always be friends, she walked straight over to the other students and started insulting their macaroons. Also, there is the small thing of deliberately calling the fire department, pinning it on Marinette, getting the whole school in trouble, and blackmailing Mr. Damocles so that she is the only one to escape punishment. And even after Adrien calls her out on it, her response was: So what?

      Maybe she'll grow up to be a good person one day, but it is a day that seems further and further away with each passing episode.

      The only one who seemed to really forgive her was Mylene. Everyone else seemed to be willing to give her a chance because they're just the kind of people who want to give someone a chance to turn over a new leaf. They don't gain anything by rejecting Chloe's attempts to be nice.

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    • Forced attempts, you mean.

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    • Miraculous...es wrote:
      Forced attempts, you mean.

      Forced, yes, but honest attempts. She wasn't half-hearted in trying, she was really trying to be nicer, even though her natural meanness just kept leaking out.

      I never expected her to reform at the end of this episode. Nobody did. It'll take time to chip away at Chloe's bad attitude courtesy of the status quo, but I can't help but feel there was something different in her tone than normal when criticising everyone's macarons. She's on the path to change, I think. The path is just a little askew right now.

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    • My favourite part was how Chloe accidentally friend zoned herself. It's also nice to get confirmation to my personal theory that part of Chloe's personality is because of her mother left her when she was a little

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    • Where is lila? she didnt appear in any of the episodes. She probably left the school :P

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    • ZagHeroesFanGal wrote:
      Where is lila? she didnt appear in any of the episodes. She probably left the school :P

      i don't believe tha she left school. in volpina, HM said himself that we're going to see her again and in one of the synopsis of season 2 it was stated that lila is still pursuing adrien and is trying to become popular by more lying. 

      i think that she is in a different class and that's why we just haven't seen her :)

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    • ZagHeroesFanGal wrote: Where is lila? she didnt appear in any of the episodes. She probably left the school :P

      It’s possible Chloé doesn’t have her number since “The Collector” overlaps with “Volpina” and in “Despair Bear” we see Lila is evidently NOT in their class. She’ll be back I think, but not in their class. I think they moved her out so Luka and Kagami can be i their class.

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    • Granaatti wrote: My favourite part was how Chloe accidentally friend zoned herself. It's also nice to get confirmation to my personal theory that part of Chloe's personality is because of her mother left her when she was a little

      It is interesting I agree. I’m not giving up on my theory that Chloé’s mom makes Chloé feel she’s not good enough, but it seems unlikeliest now that it’s kinda implied there’s been no contact with Audrey since she left. I wonder why she left and what kind of person she was. I don’t think she seems like she was very kind. Her pose is quite haughty and she’s abandoning Chloé likes that.

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    • Honestly, one of my favourite parts of the episode was when Marinette and Adrien spotted the teddy bear and they and to transform. It was just like all the comics and fanfiction.

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    • Honestly the fact that Chloé throws a party for the entire school, invites everyone including Marinette and Alya and tries to act nicer just to save her friendship with Adrien is especially the sweetest thing she ever did for him. To act completely different from her normal behavior plus being polite to the person she despise the most just for his him shows how much she is dedicated to him. People go to extreme lengh when people close to them are on line. She values his friendship as much as he values hers, and they're pinky swear was just so adorable. They really like each other very much as childhood friends. They were probably the first friends they found in each other before Chloé met Sabrina. So cute! 

      And that butler really should have thought of staying discreet instead of showing the teddy bear in front of everyone, he could have spared himself from beign akumatized if he had stayed in the shadows. But still that guy is a saint alongside Adrien. I hope we'll learn his name one day.

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    • His name is Jean-Madeupname.

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    • I think it's Jean-Claude cause that's who does her hair according to her in the Evillustrator, and the possessed Sabrina asking to do her hair emphasizes that. I think it's Jean-Claude

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    • Allya373 wrote:
      I think it's Jean-Claude cause that's who does her hair according to her in the Evillustrator, and the possessed Sabrina asking to do her hair emphasizes that. I think it's Jean-Claude

      Or that's just her misnaming him again.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Allya373 wrote:
      I think it's Jean-Claude cause that's who does her hair according to her in the Evillustrator, and the possessed Sabrina asking to do her hair emphasizes that. I think it's Jean-Claude
      Or that's just her misnaming him again.

      Purr-haps

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    • Thi episode definitely shows that Chloe is a nice person when she wants to be. It also reveals a bit of her past, with her connection to the bear. Marinette might catch on to this and from that decide to give the Bee Miraculous to her. Also, she has another connection to Adrian: both of their mothers left/disappeared. This might make for an interesting time when her mother does return. I really think her mother's departure/leaving might have caused her to become sad and lash out at others, and eventually becoming a mean person, though she's not one really.When watching movies, books, or TV shows, I try seeing it from the villain's point of view, and for Chloe, it seems that why she is so mean might be connected to something that she did or something that happened to her in the past.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Piggylady225 wrote:
      This episode was both amazing and a letdown at the same time. Don't kill me yet, let me explain!

      The letdown was that the akuma and respective fight was pretty much a repeat of Puppeteer. Despair Bear possesses people to do what he wants, and Cat Noir gets controlled AGAIN. When I saw the teaser I honestly hoped that it was Ladybug that was being controlled. I want to see what Cat does in that situation where he has to fight the one he loves, potentially hurting her; we know what Ladybug does by now. Also seeing him deal without Lucky Charm, or him making the trap himself, would be nice.

      That being said, the good COMPLETELY overshadows the bad. I am a sucker for redemption arcs, and Chloe's was amazing! Her still holding onto a teddy bear and sucking her thumb was adorable. We also get to see a little snippet of what happened to Mrs. Bourgeois (which wrenched my heat out). Finally, Adrien puts his foot down on her snobbish attitude, but gently and Adrien-like, instead of cussing her out like I've seen in some fanfictions. 

      To be fair, the akuma was, for once, not the main part of the episode, so it's less of a problem, to me, that they rehashed Puppeteer more or less. I think I would have complained if Ladybug had been controlled in this episode because it was for such a short fight. It also would have been an actual good chance to do it because they seem wary of having Ladybug be a victim of anything, but nobody could keep track of Despair Bear and it was such a short fight they could afford to have Ladybug mess up a little.

      Adrien's attitude in fanfics is always off from his actual attitude, where he's pretty much a jerk to her. It's why I prefer to write my own rather than read them. I also refuse to read fanfics with swearing in them where the source material doesn't have it. Second I see it I leave. I'm more accepting of when the cursing is mentioned in the narrative (that is it says "Ladybug cursed softly under her breath" or "Cat Noir swore loudly", not the narrator swears, because that's toned down and leaves you to pick what was actually said), but directly saying it really ticks me off because it takes me out of the world they're presenting to me.

      You do have a very good point about the akuma. I think I would still rather see Ladybug controlled, but I can see where you are coming from.

      Also, you are a much better person than me! ;)

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    • I was doing something for the transcripts page for the episode (I'm trying not to re-watch the English dubs more than once but something was bothering me) and I noticed something I didn't when I first watched the episode when I was skipping around looking for something.

      Adrien leans really close to Marinette just to ask for a macaron. Like, if you pause at the point their faces are closest because Marinette hasn't totally moved yet, you could maybe fit a macaron between their faces. He has no reason to lean that close to her, so why does he?

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      I was doing something for the transcripts page for the episode (I'm trying not to re-watch the English dubs more than once but something was bothering me) and I noticed something I didn't when I first watched the episode when I was skipping around looking for something.

      Adrien leans really close to Marinette just to ask for a macaron. Like, if you pause at the point their faces are closest because Marinette hasn't totally moved yet, you could maybe fit a macaron between their faces. He has no reason to lean that close to her, so why does he?

      Maybe he's already suspecting Marinette is his "lady".


      It was so hilarious to see Chloe reverting to her mean self after Adrien promises to be her friend "forever". A hard promise to keep. Do it long enough, Adrien, and Ladybug might finally believe Cat Noir will be able to keep his "cat's word" that he'll never reveal her identity. That was even funnier than Hawk Moth being so sure Chloe will make someone vulnerable to akumatization he sent a butterfly before it happens.

      Interesting to know that, even outside cases like in the origins episode where the akuma isn't purified or those under the puppeteer's control, people can be reakumatized.

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    • Luiz48 wrote:

      Maybe he's already suspecting Marinette is his "lady".

      It was so hilarious to see Chloe reverting to her mean self after Adrien promises to be her friend "forever". A hard promise to keep. Do it long enough, Adrien, and Ladybug might finally believe Cat Noir will be able to keep his "cat's word" that he'll never reveal her identity. That was even funnier than Hawk Moth being so sure Chloe will make someone vulnerable to akumatization he sent a butterfly before it happens.

      Interesting to know that, even outside cases like in the origins episode where the akuma isn't purified or those under the puppeteer's control, people can be reakumatized.

      I do suspect as much, but I think he's maybe not totally aware he's connected the dots or he's resiliant to accepting it because Marinette is "just a friend".

      The episode was rife with hilarity, but I think she does trust him- it's Tikki who seems adamant she never tell anyone who she is.

      Yeah, but what will they become? The akuma didn't go for the same objects or anything. Mostly because they aren't carrying them on them for the most part.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
       


      The episode was rife with hilarity, but I think she does trust him- it's Tikki who seems adamant she never tell anyone who she is.



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    • One more thing about the possibility that Adrien knows who Ladybug is but either doesn't realise he's connected the dots or is in denial, or else is developing a crush on Marinette independently of that, now I think about it. It's from "Troublemaker" and the little bit of the script we know about:


      When faced with evidence Marinette might have a crush on him, he says that Marinette's "just a friend" again after Plagg says Marinette likes Adrien. That is, Adrien is bringing up what she is to him to deny Plagg's statement about what he is to her. Which is a peculiar move, I think. He doesn't say "We're just friends" he says "Marinette's just a friend".
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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      One more thing about the possibility that Adrien knows who Ladybug is but either doesn't realise he's connected the dots or is in denial, or else is developing a crush on Marinette independently of that, now I think about it. It's from "Troublemaker" and the little bit of the script we know about:
      When faced with evidence Marinette might have a crush on him, he says that Marinette's "just a friend" again after Plagg says Marinette likes Adrien. That is, Adrien is bringing up what she is to him to deny Plagg's statement about what he is to her. Which is a peculiar move, I think. He doesn't say "We're just friends" he says "Marinette's just a friend".

      After all those times Cat Noir fell under the akumatized characters' control, Ladybug is probably too afraid of trusting him with the secret. What if he reveals it the next time he's under a villain's control?

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    • Luiz48 wrote:

      After all those times Cat Noir fell under the akumatized characters' control, Ladybug is probably too afraid of trusting him with the secret. What if he reveals it the next time he's under a villain's control?

      People bring up that argument a lot, but it has no real grounds that I can see. Not only has Hawk Moth never once shown he cares about their identities, but this isn't even supported by how Ladybug acts around Cat Noir.

      If you look at Ladybug's reaction to telling him she can't tell him who she is in "Lady Wifi" she is not happy about it. I'm pretty sure the one who wants her to keep the secret is Tikki, not Marinette. It is Tikki who freaks out whenever Marinette's identity might be discovered and the one who is adamant that Ladybug "remain a secret" but Marinette is quite unconcerned on both instances. She's the one who tells Tikki to relax. The thing is, Marinette is quite careless with her identity. Cat Noir could easily figure her out by now because she discarded the idea that they know each other, so she never bothers to pretend she doesn't know stuff he knows full well Ladybug wasn't there to know but that Marinette was, like Mylene's special song, which no one else in the class seemed to know was a thing considering the reactions to it. Or even who the akuma was that time. Considering how they're the only ones at the school, it raises questions about how she knew who was akumatised, why, and how to calm them down. Cat Noir is very careful to never use names unless he's met them a few times as Cat Noir. Notice how he still treats Marinette as a stranger despite having met her twice as Cat Noir. If she really, truly, does not want Cat Noir to know who she is, she would take his words from "Lady Wifi" to heart- "Hey you realise we might know each other in normal life?"- but she doesn't. She says "Doubt it" and brushes it off. She isn't concerned about keeping her identity from him, or she'd be more cautious.

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    • Luiz48 wrote:

      After all those times Cat Noir fell under the akumatized characters' control, Ladybug is probably too afraid of trusting him with the secret. What if he reveals it the next time he's under a villain's control?

      Well, some of the instances are out of his control, he took the arrow for Ladybug in Dark Cupid, otherwise she would have been under control, and he was about to kill her, so I don't think that if he knew who she was it wouldn't have prevented him to try to kill her, in Princess Fragrance because Marinette lost Tikki, she couldn't intervene as Ladybug so quick, lending enough time to Princess Fragrance to get everyone, and they don't do anything unless she tells them too, in Despair Bear, I don't see why he chose Chat Noir over Ladybug, both didn't knew where he was, but he grabbed Chat Noir instead of going straight for Ladybug, which I find was quite the missing opportunity for the writers and he pretty much talked like the little guy, in The Puppeteer, Ladybug only saving her doll and not his too is not really his fault, he was busy saving her, and she couldn't do the same until after everything was over. And since Manon was speaking through him, I doubt he would have told her since he's a puppet and she's the one who does all the speaking. 

      Also the idea that she's just a friend, Adrien knows Marinette idolize his father since she wants to become a great fashion designer just like him, so maybe he thinks she use the photos were he models to have a good idea for boy's clothes? Since she's used to female clothing, her making boy's clothes might be a little tricky unless she has pictures to see how it's done. I don't know, that's what I think.

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    • Chi of Darkness wrote:
      Luiz48 wrote:

      After all those times Cat Noir fell under the akumatized characters' control, Ladybug is probably too afraid of trusting him with the secret. What if he reveals it the next time he's under a villain's control?

      Well, some of the instances are out of his control, he took the arrow for Ladybug in Dark Cupid, otherwise she would have been under control, and he was about to kill her, so I don't think that if he knew who she was it wouldn't have prevented him to try to kill her, in Princess Fragrance because Marinette lost Tikki, she couldn't intervene as Ladybug so quick, lending enough time to Princess Fragrance to get everyone, and they don't do anything unless she tells them too, in Despair Bear, I don't see why he chose Chat Noir over Ladybug, both didn't knew where he was, but he grabbed Chat Noir instead of going straight for Ladybug, which I find was quite the missing opportunity for the writers and he pretty much talked like the little guy, in The Puppeteer, Ladybug only saving her doll and not his too is not really his fault, he was busy saving her, and she couldn't do the same until after everything was over. And since Manon was speaking through him, I doubt he would have told her since he's a puppet and she's the one who does all the speaking. 

      Also the idea that she's just a friend, Adrien knows Marinette idolize his father since she wants to become a great fashion designer just like him, so maybe he thinks she use the photos were he models to have a good idea for boy's clothes? Since she's used to female clothing, her making boy's clothes might be a little tricky unless she has pictures to see how it's done. I don't know, that's what I think.

      I agree that going for Cat Noir instead of Ladybug was a missed opportunity.

      I wonder if any of those new akumatized people will wonder why Hawk Moth is asking for only Ladybug's Miraculous when he's known for wanting Cat Noir's as well.

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    • Chi of Darkness wrote:

      Well, some of the instances are out of his control, he took the arrow for Ladybug in Dark Cupid, otherwise she would have been under control, and he was about to kill her, so I don't think that if he knew who she was it wouldn't have prevented him to try to kill her, in Princess Fragrance because Marinette lost Tikki, she couldn't intervene as Ladybug so quick, lending enough time to Princess Fragrance to get everyone, and they don't do anything unless she tells them too, in Despair Bear, I don't see why he chose Chat Noir over Ladybug, both didn't knew where he was, but he grabbed Chat Noir instead of going straight for Ladybug, which I find was quite the missing opportunity for the writers and he pretty much talked like the little guy, in The Puppeteer, Ladybug only saving her doll and not his too is not really his fault, he was busy saving her, and she couldn't do the same until after everything was over. And since Manon was speaking through him, I doubt he would have told her since he's a puppet and she's the one who does all the speaking. 

      Also the idea that she's just a friend, Adrien knows Marinette idolize his father since she wants to become a great fashion designer just like him, so maybe he thinks she use the photos were he models to have a good idea for boy's clothes? Since she's used to female clothing, her making boy's clothes might be a little tricky unless she has pictures to see how it's done. I don't know, that's what I think.

      Good points- at no point when he was under anyone's control was Cat Noir of his own mind.


      True, but it's the fact that in response to Plagg saying "She's your admirer" he immediately responds with how he feels about her that's strange about his reply. He isn't saying he and Marinette are just friends, and thus that he thinks Marinette likes him as just a friend, he's saying he likes her as a friend. In other words, her feelings are the topic Plagg brings up, but Adrien instead immediately denies he has feelings for her.
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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Chi of Darkness wrote:

      Well, some of the instances are out of his control, he took the arrow for Ladybug in Dark Cupid, otherwise she would have been under control, and he was about to kill her, so I don't think that if he knew who she was it wouldn't have prevented him to try to kill her, in Princess Fragrance because Marinette lost Tikki, she couldn't intervene as Ladybug so quick, lending enough time to Princess Fragrance to get everyone, and they don't do anything unless she tells them too, in Despair Bear, I don't see why he chose Chat Noir over Ladybug, both didn't knew where he was, but he grabbed Chat Noir instead of going straight for Ladybug, which I find was quite the missing opportunity for the writers and he pretty much talked like the little guy, in The Puppeteer, Ladybug only saving her doll and not his too is not really his fault, he was busy saving her, and she couldn't do the same until after everything was over. And since Manon was speaking through him, I doubt he would have told her since he's a puppet and she's the one who does all the speaking. 

      Also the idea that she's just a friend, Adrien knows Marinette idolize his father since she wants to become a great fashion designer just like him, so maybe he thinks she use the photos were he models to have a good idea for boy's clothes? Since she's used to female clothing, her making boy's clothes might be a little tricky unless she has pictures to see how it's done. I don't know, that's what I think.

      Good points- at no point when he was under anyone's control was Cat Noir of his own mind.
      True, but it's the fact that in response to Plagg saying "She's your admirer" he immediately responds with how he feels about her that's strange about his reply. He isn't saying he and Marinette are just friends, and thus that he thinks Marinette likes him as just a friend, he's saying he likes her as a friend. In other words, her feelings are the topic Plagg brings up, but Adrien instead immediately denies he has feelings for her.

      Makes me wonder why Hawk Moth never thought about asking Cat Noir to reveal her identity during any of those cases.

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    • Luiz48 wrote:

      Makes me wonder why Hawk Moth never thought about asking Cat Noir to reveal her identity during any of those cases.

      Since he hasn't asked, he probably doesn't care. Why would he? He sends out akumas to get them, and Ladybug and Cat Noir usually show up right after. He doesn't need to know who they are. Also, it doesn't seem like the brainwashed Cat Noir really thinks at all, nor does he recognise Ladybug. So he may lose the knowledge when brainwashed if he had it. Additionally, Hawk Moth is not the one in control of Cat Noir- his akuma is, so Hawk Moth CAN'T ask. He has to tell the akumas to have Cat Noir take Ladybug's earrings.

      There's also the possibility Hawk Moth already knows who they both are. He definitely seems to know who Cat Noir is, and he may have figured Ladybug out, too, after Marinette brought him his book back and he seems to think she figured him out because of the book.

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    • I disagree with you, Adrien thought he had the book in the park with Lila Rossi when he was about to show Lila the book because she was CLAIMING she had a miraculous and Adrien stupidly believed her until Ladybug came into the not-so dramatic scene and had a tantrum.

      That was when Adrien THOUGHT he had the book last then Tikki stole it before Mari changed into Ladybug and had her tantrum. So Adrien might of thought he lost it in the park and since the park is just around the corner of Mari's house and Mari's house is just around the corner for school, a lot of students probably go there which means Mari could have found it in the bin.

      Then she would have heard from Chloe that Adrien's not coming to school because of the lost book and then she would have a mental breakdown and then go to the Agreste Mansion and give the book to Gabriel Agreste who would have calculated that she is not Ladybug by seeing that it was lying around in a local park and Mari picked it up from luck.

      Although that looks complicated it actually is pretty simple.

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    • DespairBears wrote:
      I disagree with you, Adrien thought he had the book in the park with Lila Rossi when he was about to show Lila the book because she was CLAIMING she had a miraculous and Adrien stupidly believed her until Ladybug came into the not-so dramatic scene and had a tantrum.

      That was when Adrien THOUGHT he had the book last then Tikki stole it before Mari changed into Ladybug and had her tantrum. So Adrien might of thought he lost it in the park and since the park is just around the corner of Mari's house and Mari's house is just around the corner for school, a lot of students probably go there which means Mari could have found it in the bin.

      Then she would have heard from Chloe that Adrien's not coming to school because of the lost book and then she would have a mental breakdown and then go to the Agreste Mansion and give the book to Gabriel Agreste who would have calculated that she is not Ladybug by seeing that it was lying around in a local park and Mari picked it up from luck.

      Although that looks complicated it actually is pretty simple.

      Um... I'm not following you? I watched "Volpina" I know exactly how it went down. However, from Gabriel's side of things, he knows Adrien stole the book, and somehow, he concludes that Ladybug and Cat Noir know his identity. Now, let me explain things:


      Gabriel connects Adrien stealing the book to Ladybug and Cat Noir knowing his identity. We know this because he already has the plan to akumatise himself when he returns to the atelier. He tears the room apart very casually and once done, is very collected. So it was not done in anger, but for show. He already had the plan to akumatise himself and lure them there by that point. He also has Nathalie take the sketchbook to the lair before all that, for more evidence. So by that point, he already knew Ladybug and Cat Noir suspected him of being Hawk Moth. There's no way he overheard Ladybug's phone call to Cat Noir, so the only way he could have connected the two was through Adrien because he knows Adrien is the one who stole the book. Gabriel does not know what happened to the book after that.

      He already suspects Adrien is Cat Noir in "Simon Says". He also has nothing to connect Ladybug and Cat Noir to Adrien unless Adrien himself is Cat Noir. Additionally, when the Collector goes to get Adrien, keeping in mind that Gabriel is completely in control of himself based on his dialogue and actions, he isn't concerned or not bothered. He's angry. Why would he be angry? If he's angry, that means he wanted Adrien to be there to be captured. It can't be for Adrien's safety- Adrien would be perfectly safe if he'd just left the house, Nathalie, and the Gorilla out of the picture and lured them to, say, the school. But he didn't. He went after Adrien and ws furious to find him missing. He also, it cannot be overstated, purposely sent Ladybug (and Cat Noir) to his home, that was his plan all along. His plan was to send Ladybug there and capture her when she went to go look for Adrien/Cat Noir, who he had already captured to A) obtain his Miraculous and B) prevent him from heloping Ladybug.

      In order for "The Collector" to happen, he has to suspect who Cat Noir is, and if he thinks Cat Noir took the book and gave it to Ladybug, and a girl returns the book to him so Adrien can come back to school, who is he going to suspect that girl is? When, as far as he knows, the book is in Ladybug's possession?

      That's how things had to have worked out as we know them right now, unless someone can provide an alternate solution that explains why Gabriel connects Adrien stealking the book to Ladybug and Cat Noir knowing his identity, why Gabriel would fully plan on luring superheroes to his house where he knows Adrien can get hurt if he doesn't capture Adrien in his book, and explain why Gabriel would be angry (as opposed to worried/concerned/upset/sad) to find Adrien isn't there, why he would try and capture Adrien in the first place.

      THAT is what I was talking about. Gabriel has no idea where the book went after it was stolen until it gets back to him. But he does know it connects him to Hawk Moth and that his having it makes him suspicious so he has to do something.
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    • Who else thinks that this episode sorta marks or at least hints at a Chloe's redemption arc? Or maybe her turning into a hero?

      She's trying to be nice, she was actually sorta nice in the end, especially that one part when Chloe helped Ladybug during the battle with Despair Bear... (or Cat Noir, technically)

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    • Shiranai-Atsune wrote:
      Who else thinks that this episode sorta marks or at least hints at a Chloe's redemption arc? Or maybe her turning into a hero?

      She's trying to be nice, she was actually sorta nice in the end, especially that one part when Chloe helped Ladybug during the battle with Despair Bear... (or Cat Noir, technically)

      I think that's the point. Proving that Chloe, deep (deep, deep, deep) down, is a good person and capable of good things. A few times, she's pretty self-aware that she's not nice, so it seems to be something she does on purpose for the most part.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Shiranai-Atsune wrote:
      Who else thinks that this episode sorta marks or at least hints at a Chloe's redemption arc? Or maybe her turning into a hero?

      She's trying to be nice, she was actually sorta nice in the end, especially that one part when Chloe helped Ladybug during the battle with Despair Bear... (or Cat Noir, technically)

      I think that's the point. Proving that Chloe, deep (deep, deep, deep) down, is a good person and capable of good things. A few times, she's pretty self-aware that she's not nice, so it seems to be something she does on purpose for the most part.

      So deep she'll need a submarine, which her Mayor Dad will probably buy for her.

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    • Luiz48 wrote:
      Thearomalady wrote:
      Shiranai-Atsune wrote:
      Who else thinks that this episode sorta marks or at least hints at a Chloe's redemption arc? Or maybe her turning into a hero?

      She's trying to be nice, she was actually sorta nice in the end, especially that one part when Chloe helped Ladybug during the battle with Despair Bear... (or Cat Noir, technically)

      I think that's the point. Proving that Chloe, deep (deep, deep, deep) down, is a good person and capable of good things. A few times, she's pretty self-aware that she's not nice, so it seems to be something she does on purpose for the most part.
      So deep she'll need a submarine, which her Mayor Dad will probably buy for her.

      Good metaphor.

      Yes as we can see Chloe can be nice, just hear me out.

      Okay, on Antibug, Chloe knew that vanisher needed to be stopped and therefore she rushed in to help Ladybug and Chat Noir but the only reason she's so mean is that she probably didn't know how to act in front of people she liked like her friends therefore she treats them badly. There might be a reason that Chloe wants to be like Ladybug, I'm thinking either she's doing it for the fame and glory.

      But yes she does have some good in her, all she needs is a shove in the right direction.

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    • Found this on Discord. 
      Despair Bear - No hair Adrien error
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    • LuluGemNZ wrote:
      Found this on Discord. 
      Despair Bear - No hair Adrien error


      What's this?

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    • Luiz48 wrote:
      LuluGemNZ wrote:
      Found this on Discord. 
      Despair Bear - No hair Adrien error



      What's this?

      Despair Bear - No hair Adrien

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    • Does anyone know the slow dance music from the Despair Bear? It sounds so good xD

      Actually, it would be helpful if anyone knew where I can find all the music played through the Mirculous Series?

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    • Aononano wrote:
      Does anyone know the slow dance music from the Despair Bear? It sounds so good xD

      Actually, it would be helpful if anyone knew where I can find all the music played through the Mirculous Series?

      The soundtrack is created by the creators of the show. :)

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    • A FANDOM user
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