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  • This is the official discussion thread for S2E1, "The Collector".

    Post and share your thoughts on the episode here. You will not need to mark spoilers in this thread.

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    • This is an anticlimactic story, Gabriel is Hawk Moth and Nathalie knows! :(
      Gabriel is Hawk Moth
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    • Can anyone link me to somewhere I can watch the episode?

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    • I have to say this episode surely has a lot of plot twist... Too much to even count about... Oh well, hopefully, we will get more backstory after this episode has happened.

      P.S: The funny part was when Fu take screenshots with his phone Imao XD Just thinking of it, makes me laugh XDDD

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    • can some one please put the link for the episode since i cannot find it anywhere

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    • I can't find it anywhere either! I really want to though. Can someone send a link?

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    • Here is a link to the episode in English.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cIsK5UPCN0s

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    • Thanks!

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    • I can't watch it!!! 😩😩😩😩😩😩😩😩😩😢😢😢😭😭😭😭😭

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    • Not from the UK!

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    • HoneyCandiez
      HoneyCandiez removed this reply because:
      Illegal streams.
      14:55, October 21, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • All the times I kept insisting that Gabriel akumatized himself to keep people from suspecting him as Hawk Moth like Norman Osborn would, and nobody even bothered to notice. Well, I told you so!

      The fact that Nathalie appears aware of what her boss is doing, however, is what I'm intrigued about. If she's going to be Le Paon, this is a point in her favor. Second-in-commands are often scheming to usurp their boss and take control, after all.

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    • Maetch wrote: All the times I kept insisting that Gabriel akumatized himself to keep people from suspecting him as Hawk Moth like Norman Osborn would, and nobody even bothered to notice. Well, I told you so!

      The fact that Nathalie appears aware of what her boss is doing, however, is what I'm intrigued about. If she's going to be Le Paon, this is a point in her favor. Second-in-commands are often scheming to usurp their boss and take control, after all.

      Yeah, that part surprised me a well, but I somehow still think she knows about Adrien. If she knows about both and not saying anything, what side is she on?

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    • Yeah, that's a bit of a head-scratcher. Not only that Nathalie's "in the know" about Gabriel's double life, but how to interpret that in light of the fact that Agreste's very FIRST act as The Collector is to "collect" Nathalie in his book? Particularly when you take a look at the horrified expression on her face as she's converted to the 2-dimensional page. She did NOT see that coming.

      It seems like Gabriel's gone around the bend in this episode, and not even calculating his best advantage with these new powers. He just lets himself run amuck. Given that he has the power to do it, you have to wonder why he never tried earlier, and why didn't he stop to take special precautions to prevent anyone from discovering who The Collector was? He should know better by now, after all the minions of his that LB&CN have defeated. So, other than deflecting suspicion of Gabriel Agreste being Hawk Moth, what did he really accomplish? Nothing. A wasted opportunity for him, given that he won't be able to pull this trick again without re-igniting suspicions about himself.

      Marinette kind of disappointed me by lying to Master Fu like that. Usually she is more mature and uses better judgment, but I guess she's still a kid, and the whole secret identity thing makes "honesty is the best policy" a confusing issue for her. I guess things worked out okay for her at the end, when she comes clean and explains everything to him -- and oddly enough, she even has a little confession session with Gabriel there at the very end. He must be so pleased with the success of his little masquerade to deflect suspicion from himself that he's feeling in a magnanimous mood.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Yeah, that's a bit of a head-scratcher. Not only that Nathalie's "in the know" about Gabriel's double life, but how to interpret that in light of the fact that Agreste's very FIRST act as The Collector is to "collect" Nathalie in his book? Particularly when you take a look at the horrified expression on her face as she's converted to the 2-dimensional page. She did NOT see that coming.

      Nathalie knew the job was dangerous when she took it, I presume.

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    • Marinette sure lacked judgement not trusting the guy who freaking gave her the miraculous. Just because of Adrien. Wow. She has more serious problems than we thought. I wonder if Adrien had been in his room, would Gabriel have used the book on him? I hope not.

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    • Well, I guess she learned something anyway. After proudly displaying her annotated flow charts of Adrien's daily schedule, she must have thought better of having it down in hard copy -- she's at least destroyed the incriminating evidence and instead committed all Adrien-related data to memory

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    • I mean, really...?  ADRIEN Agreste is Hawk Moth?? She was worried that Master Fu would BELIEVE that?

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    • Well, she don't know that Adrien is Cat Noir yet, so that might have a lot to do with that.

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    • It's not reasonable for judge Marinette like that. Marinette was bewildered that time. She thought Adrien because Hawk Moth since Master Fu said that whoever had the Miraculous book last after he had lost it at present is possession with the Butterfly/Moth and the Peacock Miraculous and could potentially be Hawk Moth too.

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    • Plus she's still recovering from the mayhem that was Volpina, so her mind's not fully relaxed yet.

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    • I really knew that Gabriel is howkmoth I just watched the first episode of season 2 and he said that book is the only gift his wife got for him e
      Imagesea21
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    • Well I just got more inspiration for my canon divergence fanfic.

      Seriously though, this was an interesting and a bit of a surprise for a first episode. I get the feeling Gabriel and Nathalie (or just Nathalie) assume Marinette is also Ladybug. We possibly got a hint to who La Paon might be as well...

      Lastly, cruelest father of the year goes the Gabriel Agreste lol.

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    • Don't get me wrong, I love Marinette, and can forgive her making some mistakes, but she's usually smarter than this. I mean, she made more mistakes early in the series, but slowly she seemed to be gaining in wisdom. I don't know if I want to buy into the idea that anything involving Adrien automatically causes her IQ to drop 30 points.

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    • Let's face it: At this point, the real twist would have been if Gabriel WASN'T Hawk Moth.

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    • Marinette does seem to make some ( rarely) foolish and a bit brave but stupid decisions, like when she didn't want Adrien to find and listen to her message so she stole his phone and erased it. Not knowing that Adrien knew it was missing making Marinette nervous and anxious to giving it back thinking that Adrien might of know she stole it. The whole plot is in Copycat.

      Marinette in the episodes get used to talking and coping with seeing Adrien so she develops more confidence and in Kung Food at the end ( right at the end) you can see Marinette and Adrien eating and talking over Wang Cheng's soup.

      While spending time around Marinette, Adrien seems to like her even more knowing that in A Christmas Special Adrien commented when he recived the present that Marinette gave him "Marinette's Amazing".

      So her "IQ does drop to 30 points" but with each episode its subtracting 1 each time she meets Adrien so she becomes less and less anxious with each meet. You might consider it to be a work in progress.

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    • Oh, they could have done it. But how disappointing would the sudden revelation of introducing Gabriel's evil twin brother have been? That would have been super-lame.

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    • So now the bigger question remains. What happened with Adrien's mother. Will she become Le Peon? Can the Miraculous corrupt people? And if Le Peon is Hawk Moth's boss, is all his plans to resurrect or fulfill his wives' agenda?

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Oh, they could have done it. But how disappointing would the sudden revelation of introducing Gabriel's evil twin brother have been? That would have been super-lame.

      I agree, we would want something more exciting not just a twin brother. For me that's kinda old.

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    • Light, Dark And Harmony Risen To Unison wrote:
      Positronic wrote:
      Oh, they could have done it. But how disappointing would the sudden revelation of introducing Gabriel's evil twin brother have been? That would have been super-lame.
      I agree, we would want something more exciting not just a twin brother. For me that's kinda old.

      Basically though, any reveal of Hawk Moth's ID that did NOT turn out to be Gabriel Agreste would need to introduce a completely new character into the series, because there's no way to build a case for any pre-existing character that will work within the framework of already-revealed clues. AND since we've already seen his true ID in Origins Part 1, albeit only shown as a shadowy figure, it ALSO has to be someone who at least slightly resembles (AND sounds like) Gabriel. With a convincing connection to Mrs. Agreste as well, a believable reason that he'd be fixated on her picture within the locket he's holding before transforming into Hawk Moth for the very first time. That kind of paints them into a corner with a limited number of options.

      It really doesn't matter though, because it's just plain dirty pool as far as the mystery-solving game is concerned. If you toss out a dozen red herrings, and then just interject a new character never seen or heard of before, that means that NOBODY ever had a fair chance at figuring it out -- it's a CHEAT.

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    • I think Gabriel captured Nathalie so as not to look suspicious. Akumas tend to act in a certain way and I think think Gabriel was just playing his part. And I'm going with "Gabriel" on that because I'm fairly sure the Collector was little more than him putting a mask on.

      The weirdest thing to me in the entire episode was the entry point to Hawk Moth's lair. I've always suspected it was in that room, but I figured he went below to transform and teleport, but in hindsight that doesn't really make any sense. So, how does he get where he gets so fast? We've seen where the lair is. It also disproved my "design studio" theory, because it's repeatedly stated he's a shut-in.

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    • Strider Xanthos wrote:
      Can the Miraculous corrupt people?

      Yes. Master Fu implied as much when he talked about a Miraculous getting into "the wrong hands". Are what exactly does that mean "the wrong hands"? Anyone that Master Fu (or his brethren Masters, when they existed... although I'm not convinced that there are none left, only that Fu is the only KNOWN surviving Guardian) DID NOT CHOOSE. Those are the wrong hands. That's why Tikki calls Marinette The Chosen One (for the LADYBUG Miraculous). The specific qualities possessed by a Chosen One differ according to the Miraculous that they are Chosen to wield.

      The right Miraculous in the hands of the right choice of user will allow that user to attain the ultimate enhancement of their natural abilities, unlocking the best human potential in them. The WRONG user... just the opposite. A different Miraculous for each Chosen One. They can't just swap them among themselves, they have to be Chosen by someone like Master Fu.

      In general though, the type of person Master Fu would be looking for is someone capable of mastering their own emotions. Emotions are a healthy part of them, but they DON'T control that person's actions. Marinette mastered her fears and didn't let them control her, not because she doesn't feel fear, but because she can rise above it, be in control of it. Gabriel is no better than the people he akumatizes. He lets his fear, anger, and despair control HIM. He isn't strong enough to master those negative emotions, so when he attempts to use the Butterfly Miraculous, for which he was never Chosen and was not suited, personality-wise, he tries to bend the powers that Nooroo grants to his will, but instead, they bend HIM. "Power corrupts" was never truer than in the example of a Miraculous in the wrong hands -- the hands of someone the Guardians of the Miraculous did not choose for it. Just as a Miraculous brings out the best human potential in its Chosen One, for a user not chosen, the power corrupts by amplifying their worst human potential.

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    • Wait a minute, the Miraculous were around for centuries and Master Fu is at least 250. But then if someone took the Peacock and Butterfly miraculous and Gabriel's around 20-50, then someone gave him the Miraculous or he found it from someone that left it behind. But who...and why?

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      I think Gabriel captured Nathalie so as not to look suspicious. Akumas tend to act in a certain way and I think think Gabriel was just playing his part. And I'm going with "Gabriel" on that because I'm fairly sure the Collector was little more than him putting a mask on.

      That doesn't really track though. It's the very FIRST thing he collects, in his own home, and the only witness would be the victim collected -- Nathalie herself. He later collects Mayor Bourgeois, some other random people, the Eiffle Tower, and some random targets of opportunity. There's no real plan or pattern, it's all just to create a lot of chaos and attract attention. He could easily have ignored Nathalie and it would have made a difference to no one... but Nathalie. No one would ever have known or questioned it, because there's no real point to his collecting mania. Is there a pattern of revenge? Not really. And he's not holding them for ransom, and he can't sell what he collects. Frankly at this point, it just seems like Gabriel's gone off his nut.

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    • Strider Xanthos wrote:
      Wait a minute, the Miraculous were around for centuries and Master Fu is at least 250. But then if someone took the Peacock and Butterfly miraculous and Gabriel's around 20-50, then someone gave him the Miraculous or he found it from someone that left it behind. But who...and why?

      He's 186.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      That doesn't really track though. It's the very FIRST thing he collects, in his own home, and the only witness would be the victim collected -- Nathalie herself. He later collects Mayor Bourgeois, some other random people, the Eiffle Tower, and some random targets of opportunity. There's no real plan or pattern, it's all just to create a lot of chaos and attract attention. He could easily have ignored Nathalie and it would have made a difference to no one... but Nathalie. No one would ever have known or questioned it, because there's no real point to his collecting mania. Is there a pattern of revenge? Not really. And he's not holding them for ransom, and he can't sell what he collects. Frankly at this point, it just seems like Gabriel's gone off his nut.

      Well, what he did was he transformed, went back into the house, and then attacked Nathalie after kicking the door open. The room he was in he had already destroyed, leaving nothing of value to collect. He burst open the door and attacked the first person he saw, Nathalie, who he cites as having inspiration. He may have captured her as a precaution. He then captured the Gorilla, and had every intention of capturing Adrien as well but Adrien had already transformed into Cat Noir and left. In other words, he was capturing every single person in the house.

      He was acting the part of an akuma- attacking the people nearest him and then famous things in Paris. Had he left Nathalie alone, it would have looked really suspicious because she was standing right outside the room- security footage can confirm that, if they decided to check it. The Gorilla saw what he was doing and could have confirmed later that the Collector left Nathalie alone, we don't see if people lose their memory of being captured or not. "Better safe than sorry". Speaking of that phrasing, putting her in the book kept her safe. That would explain why he attacked Adrien, too. Or went to do so. They can't be hurt if they're not around.

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    • HoneyCandiez
      HoneyCandiez removed this reply because:
      Illegal stream.
      02:01, October 22, 2017
      This reply has been removed

    • Reminder: Please don't post illegal streams of the episode.

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    • I think Marinette has always been flawed in certain aspects so her not telling Master Fu as to who she got the book from was only natural (given her current self) so far.

      Aside from her being too head over heels over Adrien, so far in the series, I noticed that Marinette has this tendency to be too certain of her decisions and not second guess them. Her decisions are also usually pretty affected by her emotions. So at that point where Master Fu asked the question with regard to the origin of the book, her fear for Adrien overrid everything and she lied.

      I'm not saying it's a positive thing on her end. Personally, I've always thought that her obsession over Adrien is just too much. But at the same time, I think it will still take a quite a lot of growth for her to be able to think of matters involving Adrien with sufficient objectivity. I mean even in Volpina and the Christmas Special, she still was letting her emotions get the better of her and her decisions. 

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    • Divergence from the current line of discussion, but does anyone have thoughts on Gabriel possibly knowing that Adrien is Chat Noir?

      I found the conversation between Gabriel and the two heroes at the end of the episode very suspicious. It was in Adrien's room, after LB's "Lucky Charm". Can't remember the exact phrasing, but it went something like:

      Gabriel runs into rooms and slams open doors: "Where's my son?"

      Chat: "Probably went into hiding."

      LB: "He's right, otherwise he would have reappeared here."

      Then Gabriel places his hands on Chat's shoulders and says something like: "My son is very precious to me and I wouldn't want anything to happen to him." LB says something and the camera pans to Chat's smiling face with Gabriel's hands still on his shoulders.

      And after Chat and LB have left, Gabriel turns around and says: I'll be seeing you very soon.

      Those last two scenes rubbed me the wrong way. There was way too much screentime of his hands on Chat's shoulders, and WHILE he was gushing about his kid? (Adrien looked pretty pleased though HAHA.)

      This is especially after Volpina, when Gabriel noticed Chat's and Adrien's ring in the same episode. He definitely knows about Miraculous jewelry, since he's got one himself and he knows Chat's Miraculous is his ring.

      Then there's catching Adrien grabbing his 'very special book' from his 'top-secret safe' behind the painting. Didn't he ask how the heck Adrien knew the code to it? Plagg mentioned once that the kwami can't be captured on camera, and from the pictures that incriminated Adrien, you definitely can't see Plagg anywhere. That means to Gabriel, Adrien pulled open the painting, stared at the locked safe for a while, then tada! the safe opened on its own. To anyone else not in the know about kwami, that'd be weird. However, since Gabriel is Hawk Moth, he's got familiarity with how the kwami work. So it's possible for him to assume the work of a kwami when the safe opened, and that means his kid has one.

      The evidence that his son and Chat are one and the same seemed to have been piling up for Gabriel. When he slammed open the doors to Adrien's room in front of Chat and LB, it just felt like an act, like his whole 'Oh no, I've been betrayed by my son and now I'm akumatized!' shebang. It just gave me the feeling that he's looking for his son, yes, but he also knows that his kid is like, right there. (I don't know if it's just me, but it seemed as though Gabriel was in full awareness during the time he was The Collector? There seemed to be an air of control about him, imo. Or maybe it's because he turned into the Collector and then he gave himself a name, heh.)

      Anyway, last point. Not sure if you guys have seen S2E2 yet, but at the end of it, when we're shown the obligatory good ole HM yelling at the pretty window in frustration over his failed evil plans in his secret lair, he talks about Ladybug getting destroyed. Can't recall the exact words, but I know for certain that Chat wasn't mentioned. This is pretty different from episodes in S1 when it was always: Ladybug AND Chat Noir. Now, Gabriel definitely loves his son - freaking out over his supposed abduction during Christmas, and look at those fingers curling on the nape of his kid's neck when they were hugging :') - and if he had indeed figured out that Chat=Adrien, then hey, he'd definitely leave his kid out of any destruction plans.

      Don't think he knows that Marinette=Ladybug though. Can't help but notice during the scene where Marinette was returning the book to Gabriel, she had her earrings covered by her hair. I mean, she has always had, but I just kept returning to that detail during that interaction.

      Anyway, what do you guys think? I can't tell if I'm overthinking this or not.

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    • Blackjay48 wrote:
      Divergence from the current line of discussion, but does anyone have thoughts on Gabriel possibly knowing that Adrien is Chat Noir?

      I found the conversation between Gabriel and the two heroes at the end of the episode very suspicious. It was in Adrien's room, after LB's "Lucky Charm". Can't remember the exact phrasing, but it went something like:

      Gabriel runs into rooms and slams open doors: "Where's my son?"

      Chat: "Probably went into hiding."

      LB: "He's right, otherwise he would have reappeared here."

      Then Gabriel places his hands on Chat's shoulders and says something like: "My son is very precious to me and I wouldn't want anything to happen to him." LB says something and the camera pans to Chat's smiling face with Gabriel's hands still on his shoulders.

      And after Chat and LB have left, Gabriel turns around and says: I'll be seeing you very soon.

      Those last two scenes rubbed me the wrong way. There was way too much screentime of his hands on Chat's shoulders, and WHILE he was gushing about his kid? (Adrien looked pretty pleased though HAHA.)

      This is especially after Volpina, when Gabriel noticed Chat's and Adrien's ring in the same episode. He definitely knows about Miraculous jewelry, since he's got one himself and he knows Chat's Miraculous is his ring.

      Then there's catching Adrien grabbing his 'very special book' from his 'top-secret safe' behind the painting. Didn't he ask how the heck Adrien knew the code to it? Plagg mentioned once that the kwami can't be captured on camera, and from the pictures that incriminated Adrien, you definitely can't see Plagg anywhere. That means to Gabriel, Adrien pulled open the painting, stared at the locked safe for a while, then tada! the safe opened on its own. To anyone else not in the know about kwami, that'd be weird. However, since Gabriel is Hawk Moth, he's got familiarity with how the kwami work. So it's possible for him to assume the work of a kwami when the safe opened, and that means his kid has one.

      The evidence that his son and Chat are one and the same seemed to have been piling up for Gabriel. When he slammed open the doors to Adrien's room in front of Chat and LB, it just felt like an act, like his whole 'Oh no, I've been betrayed by my son and now I'm akumatized!' shebang. It just gave me the feeling that he's looking for his son, yes, but he also knows that his kid is like, right there. (I don't know if it's just me, but it seemed as though Gabriel was in full awareness during the time he was The Collector? There seemed to be an air of control about him, imo. Or maybe it's because he turned into the Collector and then he gave himself a name, heh.)

      Anyway, last point. Not sure if you guys have seen S2E2 yet, but at the end of it, when we're shown the obligatory good ole HM yelling at the pretty window in frustration over his failed evil plans in his secret lair, he talks about Ladybug getting destroyed. Can't recall the exact words, but I know for certain that Chat wasn't mentioned. This is pretty different from episodes in S1 when it was always: Ladybug AND Chat Noir. Now, Gabriel definitely loves his son - freaking out over his supposed abduction during Christmas, and look at those fingers curling on the nape of his kid's neck when they were hugging :') - and if he had indeed figured out that Chat=Adrien, then hey, he'd definitely leave his kid out of any destruction plans.

      Don't think he knows that Marinette=Ladybug though. Can't help but notice during the scene where Marinette was returning the book to Gabriel, she had her earrings covered by her hair. I mean, she has always had, but I just kept returning to that detail during that interaction.

      Anyway, what do you guys think? I can't tell if I'm overthinking this or not.

      No, I think he knows full well who Cat Noir is, too, and I think he's got his suspicions about Ladybug. But I think whatever his plans are as Hawk Moth are so important it means he's willing to put Adrien in danger. Hawk Moth actually says "defeat", not destroy, and he's talking about Ladybug because Cat Noir didn't do much do beat the akuma this time around.

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    • Whew! What an episode! We knew this episode was huge, but I don't think many of us had any idea how huge it was.

      First, it's official on who Hawk Moth is, and while I was one of the people who hoped it was him since the very beginning, it's bound to be frustrating for those who wanted something different to end up with the obvious culprit. Personally, though, I think it opens a lot of doors. Now that we know, we have a new understanding of how Hawk Moth and Gabriel work. There are other surprises ahead of us, which this episode proved with some other things, and as long as the story remains strong, Gabriel being Hawk Moth will not feel cliche in a bad way.

      Not only that, but wow, Gabriel is heartless! Don't get me wrong, I think he does legitimately care for Adrien, but his obsession with ultimate power and his dream (which have to somehow relate to Mrs. Agreste) has blinded him. I hope that bites him someday, but for now, I feel bad for Adrien, who is being manipulated and neglected by the man who is Hawk Moth. While I hope Gabriel gets a cruel reality check close to the end of his villainy, he better not get away scotch-free for his mistreatment of Adrien. Get poor Adrien out of there soon, though if there is a temporary Cat Noir turn villain to help his father with retrieving his mother plot, I'd be for it.

      A true surprise that no one was expecting is that Nathalie knew about this Hawk Moth scheme the whole time. It makes me sad that someone who seems to legitimately care about the state of the Agreste family is willing to help Gabriel in his schemes and cause more pain than healing for the father and son. I really want to know more on her thoughts about this; I feel like there's an interesting story here with Nathalie's involvement in Hawk Moth's chaos.

      Yeah, I get the frustration with Marinette in this episode, but I appreciate she is flawed, and while maybe some instances are too far or too frustrating, she gives life to the series. At this point, I find Marinette internal issues interesting and Adrien's external issues interesting, but I want Marinette to have more purpose or attachment to the plot, and I want Adrien to have flaws and issues exposed that are his own, not caused by other people all the time. It feels unbalanced to me in that way, and I hope future episodes can start fixing it. I do think the episode shows how Adrien's love of his father and Marinette's love of Adrien make them fragile in some cases, though, and I hope that things develop from there so Marinette can learn to function outside her crush and Adrien can defy the father who is treating him poorly.

      Everything else was good. Master Fu's backstory is good, and both it and Gabriel's very few details about the book add more mysteries to the story. It was heartwarming seeing how all of Adrien's classmates, even Chloé in her exaggerated way, were saddened by Gabriel preventing him from returning to school and were rejoicing when he returned. All-in-all, I feel like this is a great start to the season, and I'm enthused to see where the hero side and villain side grow from here.

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    • Now that we know who Hawk Moth is, please let this be important to Adrien's character development. Please let the irony of Cat Noir existing due to Gabriel's choices while also representing Adrien's freedom from his father affect Adrien, and let him overcoming it be a big step for his character. Adrien's relationship with his dad and Cat Noir as well is unhealthy. I want the reveal of who he is dawn on Adrien and let him work through it and cause Cat Noir to be more of a means of escapism for Adrien. Adrien is a complex character and I want this complexity to be explored.

      Mari lying was important for her. Marinette is a flawed individual, and while she is an incredible superhero, she's emotional, easily jealous, and too obsessed with Adrien. This is endearing but has gotten in the way many times, which is good. I want Marinette to be a character and not an objectively good heroine. I'm excited to see Marinette continue to work with these emotions and how her superhero work will get affected post reveal.

      I'm waiting for more information on the Order of the Guardians. I'm glad we have more information on Master Fu's history but it's too vague for me right now.

      Nathalie. Her general sadness with Gabriel has been expanded so much. I'm curious if she's in love with Gabriel? I get a small sense of that. Whatever it is, she cares deeply for him. I'm so excited that we're going to see more of her in the future, and I'm pretty sure she's going to become Le Paon. Nathalie isn't as blinded as Gabriel is (I'm still in the boat that Gabriel loves Adrien but is blinded by no longer having his wife, which doesn't justify his actions) so her choice to take the Miraculous, if she does, gets me excited.

      I'm glad seeing Hawk Moth be a successful and smart villain. All we've seen is him messing up but this plan worked perfectly and I'm glad it did.

      Now that we know that Ladybug is not going to tell Cat Noir about Fu, I'm kind of hoping Plagg is going to make Adrien go there, having the two of them not mentioning what happens there to the other, and Fu just silently laughing at the situation. Imagine if the reveal was just Adrien walking in on Marinette and Fu talking, them seeing each other and their kwamis and just saying "WHAT!? You're Ladybug/Cat Noir!?" That'd be funny but anticlimactic.

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    • Tansyflower wrote:
      Whew! What an episode! We knew this episode was huge, but I don't think many of us had any idea how huge it was.

      First, it's official on who Hawk Moth is, and while I was one of the people who hoped it was him since the very beginning, it's bound to be frustrating for those who wanted something different to end up with the obvious culprit. Personally, though, I think it opens a lot of doors. Now that we know, we have a new understanding of how Hawk Moth and Gabriel work. There are other surprises ahead of us, which this episode proved with some other things, and as long as the story remains strong, Gabriel being Hawk Moth will not feel cliche in a bad way.

      Not only that, but wow, Gabriel is heartless! Don't get me wrong, I think he does legitimately care for Adrien, but his obsession with ultimate power and his dream (which have to somehow relate to Mrs. Agreste) has blinded him. I hope that bites him someday, but for now, I feel bad for Adrien, who is being manipulated and neglected by the man who is Hawk Moth. While I hope Gabriel gets a cruel reality check close to the end of his villainy, he better not get away scotch-free for his mistreatment of Adrien. Get poor Adrien out of there soon, though if there is a temporary Cat Noir turn villain to help his father with retrieving his mother plot, I'd be for it.

      A true surprise that no one was expecting is that Nathalie knew about this Hawk Moth scheme the whole time. It makes me sad that someone who seems to legitimately care about the state of the Agreste family is willing to help Gabriel in his schemes and cause more pain than healing for the father and son. I really want to know more on her thoughts about this; I feel like there's an interesting story here with Nathalie's involvement in Hawk Moth's chaos.

      Yeah, I get the frustration with Marinette in this episode, but I appreciate she is flawed, and while maybe some instances are too far or too frustrating, she gives life to the series. At this point, I find Marinette internal issues interesting and Adrien's external issues interesting, but I want Marinette to have more purpose or attachment to the plot, and I want Adrien to have flaws and issues exposed that are his own, not caused by other people all the time. It feels unbalanced to me in that way, and I hope future episodes can start fixing it. I do think the episode shows how Adrien's love of his father and Marinette's love of Adrien make them fragile in some cases, though, and I hope that things develop from there so Marinette can learn to function outside her crush and Adrien can defy the father who is treating him poorly.

      Everything else was good. Master Fu's backstory is good, and both it and Gabriel's very few details about the book add more mysteries to the story. It was heartwarming seeing how all of Adrien's classmates, even Chloé in her exaggerated way, were saddened by Gabriel preventing him from returning to school and were rejoicing when he returned. All-in-all, I feel like this is a great start to the season, and I'm enthused to see where the hero side and villain side grow from here.

      Indeed, the season appears to have started out on the right foot, at least for those of us who are happy or don't mind that Gabriel is Hawk Moth. And I no longer have to play both sides of the debate! Yay! I really liked how these were character episodes, not villain episodes, and it does make it feel like either Hawk Moth is getting more reckless or our heroes are getting stronger.

      Indeed, yes... I think Gabriel's plans are so important to him he does not seem to mind putting Adrien in danger, although capturing him the book would protect him, he seems to know Adrien is Cat Noir, or at least he's got his suspicions as to that.

      Now you mention it... Marinette is being carried along by the plot but isn't really part of it, isn't she? Adrien is tied to the storyline because of his father being Hawk Moth, but... Marinette's kinda not all that involved, is she?

      I love, love, loved the interactions between Chloe and her butler. I'm not entirely sure what their relationship is but they're very close and it's so cute. I'd love to see more of him and actually learn his name, which is apparently Jean-something but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't anything like that. Still, their relationship is adorable.

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    • Lliania wrote:
      I think Marinette has always been flawed in certain aspects so her not telling Master Fu as to who she got the book from was only natural (given her current self) so far.

      Aside from her being too head over heels over Adrien, so far in the series, I noticed that Marinette has this tendency to be too certain of her decisions and not second guess them. Her decisions are also usually pretty affected by her emotions. So at that point where Master Fu asked the question with regard to the origin of the book, her fear for Adrien overrid everything and she lied.

      I'm not saying it's a positive thing on her end. Personally, I've always thought that her obsession over Adrien is just too much. But at the same time, I think it will still take a quite a lot of growth for her to be able to think of matters involving Adrien with sufficient objectivity. I mean even in Volpina and the Christmas Special, she still was letting her emotions get the better of her and her decisions. 

      It's acceptable that she's new at this and that there's going to be a learning curve for Miraculous users, but Marinette's got to start realizing that letting her actions and decisions be dictated by her emotions is always, always going to lead to trouble and making mistakes. Fortunately in nearly every instance of this so far, she realizes she's made a mistake fairly soon and works to correct it. She needs to stop acting on impulse and stop and check herself, use her brain. She's capable of being quite clever if she doesn't let her emotions run things. The power of the Miraculous being guided simply by emotional responses is a recipe for distaster -- it's exactly what corrupts Gabriel in using his Miraculous. Mari's intentions are always good, but Gabriel probably thought so as well -- all of his actions are ultimately justified in his mind if they result in his getting his hands on the powers of creation and destruction, because he believes that's what he needs to return his wife his side. Gabriel's love for his wife leads him astray, and Marinette needs to be careful that her love for Adrien doesn't wind up doing the same thing.

      Complications arise for her here because of her duplicity in withholding the book from Adrien without his knowledge. Had she corrected that mistake earlier and told him she'd taken it, she could have asked him about where he'd gotten it. Of course, it's a little more complicated than that. Adrien stole the book from his father without his knowledge. Lila stole the book from Adrien without his knowledge. Tikki helps Marinette recover the book after she points out to Mari its origin and importance. Marinette should listen to her heart when it tells her that Adrien can't possibly be Hawk Moth, but she needs to take that emotional truth in conjunction with using her thinking capacity. The next proper step for Marinette would have been to discover the key piece of information about where Adrien (if he's not Hawk Moth) obtained the book. She should have gone to Adrien as Ladybug, and without revealing too much about the nature of the book itself, asked him where he'd gotten it. If Adrien had demanded the return of the book, she need only inform him that the book is being returned to its proper owner from which it had been stolen. With knowledge of where Adrien had gotten the book, Marinette would never have needed to lie to Master Fu. Oh, and she might also have questioned Adrien as to WHY he took the book. Depending on how forthcoming Adrien chose to be in revealing things to Ladybug, that could have opened up a whole new angle on things.

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    • Strictly speaking, we actually have no hard evidence that his goal involves returning his wife to his side. That's just speculation. It's likely, but there's still no proof of it, aside from circumstantial evidence of the picture in the locket. I'm still not convinced she's actually, truly missing and nobody knows her whereabouts. I would have thought Gabriel would have stressed the importance of the book when getting after Adrien for taking the book. But he didn't. Instead he told Adrien he used it for inspiration. He said the book was from his wife after the book was returned. That makes it feel like that isn't the whole truth to me.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      I'm still not convinced she's actually, truly missing and nobody knows her whereabouts.

      Gabriel doesn't know her whereabouts. Or if he does, he's not able to reach her where she is, and needs something to be able to accomplish that.

      Gabriel doesn't want to reveal anything about the true nature of the book (and what he himself knows about it) to his son. Why should he? It's likely that Gabriel has doped out that the book contains secrets that he'll only be able to unlock by gaining the powers of creation and destruction.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Thearomalady wrote:
      I'm still not convinced she's actually, truly missing and nobody knows her whereabouts.
      Gabriel doesn't know her whereabouts. Or if he does, he's not able to reach her where she is, and needs something to be able to accomplish that.

      Gabriel doesn't want to reveal anything about the true nature of the book (and what he himself knows about it) to his son. Why should he? It's likely that Gabriel has doped out that the book contains secrets that he'll only be able to unlock by gaining the powers of creation and destruction.

      Truly? Where's the proof of that, and that he's not lying to Adrien about the disappearance thing? That's the thing to me- I think he knows where she is but he can't/won't tell Adrien about it because it pertains to the Miraculouses. So he lied to Adrien about it.

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    • Well, we could start by asking why the book is so important to Gabriel, and why he has possession of it in the first place. If it was a gift from his wife, then where did she get it? It sure seems like ONE of them must have stolen it from the Guardians' temple, and be fully aware of its importance and the secrets it holds.

      I guess it's possible that he's telling the truth about its significance to him as his last memento of his wife, but it seems at best dubious.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      It's acceptable that she's new at this and that there's going to be a learning curve for Miraculous users, but Marinette's got to start realizing that letting her actions and decisions be dictated by her emotions is always, always going to lead to trouble and making mistakes. Fortunately in nearly every instance of this so far, she realizes she's made a mistake fairly soon and works to correct it. She needs to stop acting on impulse and stop and check herself, use her brain. She's capable of being quite clever if she doesn't let her emotions run things. The power of the Miraculous being guided simply by emotional responses is a recipe for distaster -- it's exactly what corrupts Gabriel in using his Miraculous. Mari's intentions are always good, but Gabriel probably thought so as well -- all of his actions are ultimately justified in his mind if they result in his getting his hands on the powers of creation and destruction, because he believes that's what he needs to return his wife his side. Gabriel's love for his wife leads him astray, and Marinette needs to be careful that her love for Adrien doesn't wind up doing the same thing.

      Complications arise for her here because of her duplicity in withholding the book from Adrien without his knowledge. Had she corrected that mistake earlier and told him she'd taken it, she could have asked him about where he'd gotten it. Of course, it's a little more complicated than that. Adrien stole the book from his father without his knowledge. Lila stole the book from Adrien without his knowledge. Tikki helps Marinette recover the book after she points out to Mari its origin and importance. Marinette should listen to her heart when it tells her that Adrien can't possibly be Hawk Moth, but she needs to take that emotional truth in conjunction with using her thinking capacity. The next proper step for Marinette would have been to discover the key piece of information about where Adrien (if he's not Hawk Moth) obtained the book. She should have gone to Adrien as Ladybug, and without revealing too much about the nature of the book itself, asked him where he'd gotten it. If Adrien had demanded the return of the book, she need only inform him that the book is being returned to its proper owner from which it had been stolen. With knowledge of where Adrien had gotten the book, Marinette would never have needed to lie to Master Fu. Oh, and she might also have questioned Adrien as to WHY he took the book. Depending on how forthcoming Adrien chose to be in revealing things to Ladybug, that could have opened up a whole new angle on things.

      I'm not saying that she shouldn't do those things you've mentioned. I just pointed out that given her growth so far in the series, I can't expect her to be as objective as possible in her actions whenever Adrien is involved just yet. For her to be able to do so, I think some sort of catalyst/plot device needs to be introduced first. For one, it's not like anyone has EVER pointed out to her that her excessive worrying for Adrien has lead her/them to near jeopardy. I mean we as viewers obviously see that but I think Marinette has to really be able to understand that (either from internal realization of from someone else chiding her) before she changes.

      It's not like season 1 has really hammered in on her growth in terms of dealing with her lack of calm and composed thinking when Adrien is involved so why should we expect that as soon as season 2 starts? 

      I'm not in any way defending her actions and to be honest, everyone could probably throw in a lot of suggestions which could have made this entire deal with the book less convoluted and exasperating. We could go all day with theories. But at the end of the day, I do think that no matter how many possibilities we give, it wouldn't change the fact that in the end, Marinette would have still done what she did given her characterization and character growth thus far.

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    • Tansyflower
      Tansyflower removed this reply because:
      Illegal.
      06:22, October 22, 2017
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    • Tansyflower
      Tansyflower removed this reply because:
      Illegal.
      06:22, October 22, 2017
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    • Crylicsarq wrote:
      Hey all! So, I uploaded the first episode in English and am currently trying to upload episode two in English.

      This might be blocked in some countries, if so, I'm very sorry. The episode quality is also available in HD!

      You aren't supposed to be doing this, please take down the links before an admin does it.

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    • Tansyflower wrote:

      Yeah, I get the frustration with Marinette in this episode, but I appreciate she is flawed, and while maybe some instances are too far or too frustrating, she gives life to the series

      This. This. The main reason why I actually quite like Miraculous Ladybug is the fact that we are often shown Marinette's flaws. I may not her flaws per se but I like how she's portrayed as a flawed but still strong character. I think for the most part, she functions as a good role model for younger girls.

      It's easy to write a near perfect heroine but at the same times, I think that watching that would be boring. So I'm happy with how Marinette has been developed so far. 

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Well, we could start by asking why the book is so important to Gabriel, and why he has possession of it in the first place. If it was a gift from his wife, then where did she get it? It sure seems like ONE of them must have stolen it from the Guardians' temple, and be fully aware of its importance and the secrets it holds.

      I guess it's possible that he's telling the truth about its significance to him as his last memento of his wife, but it seems at best dubious.

      I anticipate the Miraculouses and the Book were stolen around the time Master Fu fled. He might have lost all three of them while running away, since he's shown with the book. And by "lost" I mean he accidentally let them be stolen, and Gabriel and his wife tracked them to Tibet.

      Indeed. If it was significant because of his wife, he ought to have said as much when confronting Adrien about it. But he didn't, it's like he thought of that after the fact. Actually... doesn't he tell Marinette a different story, now I think about it? She asks how he got the book and he says he and his wife found it together while overseas, but he tells Adrien that his wife gave it to him. That's a clear contradiction between the two statements.

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    • To be honest, Marinette's behavior in this episode seems like a backward step for her. She seemed to be making some forward progress in the first season in gaining in life experience and wisdom, if in a kind of halting way of correcting a series of mis-steps. Perhaps the strangest thing to account for is that she doesn't seek guidance from Tikki (nor does she offer it) about what Adrien's possession of the book might mean, and what to do next. Before appearing at Master Fu's doorstep, Mari and Tikki had time to discuss the book and what Adrien's possession of it might mean, and if Marinette herself doesn't realize the importance of discovering where Adrien got the book, then Tikki should. Nor does she seek consultation with her partner Cat Noir (who, as a Miraculous holder, is affected by the discovery of the book -- his Kwami should also be aware of this information).

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    • Positronic wrote:
      To be honest, Marinette's behavior in this episode seems like a backward step for her. She seemed to be making some forward progress in the first season in gaining in life experience and wisdom, if in a kind of halting way of correcting a series of mis-steps. Perhaps the strangest thing to account for is that she doesn't seek guidance from Tikki (nor does she offer it) about what Adrien's possession of the book might mean, and what to do next. Before appearing at Master Fu's doorstep, Mari and Tikki had time to discuss the book and what Adrien's possession of it might mean, and if Marinette herself doesn't realize the importance of discovering where Adrien got the book, then Tikki should. Nor does she seek consultation with her partner Cat Noir (who, as a Miraculous holder, is affected by the discovery of the book -- his Kwami should also be aware of this information).

      Tikki may not know much about the day that the Moth and Peacock brooches vanished and the day the Book went missing. So she might not suspect Hawk Moth had the Book at all, and they both just go with what Master Fu suggested because he knows more about it than they do.

      She doesn't consult with Cat Noir because Tikki told her, indirectly, that she can't tell Cat Noir about Master Fu. "I know you told me never to bring her here again". It's a pretty clear message to not tell Cat Noir about Master Fu, and Ladybug/Marinette has always put a wall between her and Cat Noir. She trusts him, but she tries to not be personal with him (but she really sucks at not being personal about the little things). Plagg actually doesn't seem aware of things. He says the book is familiar but can't place it. Tikki knows it from a distance on sight. There's something wrong with Plagg, I think, because he also doesn't recognise the Peacock Miraculous.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:

      She doesn't consult with Cat Noir because Tikki told her, indirectly, that she can't tell Cat Noir about Master Fu. "I know you told me never to bring her here again". It's a pretty clear message to not tell Cat Noir about Master Fu, and Ladybug/Marinette has always put a wall between her and Cat Noir. She trusts him, but she tries to not be personal with him (but she really sucks at not being personal about the little things).

      It's not as complicated as all that. Cat Noir was involved in the battle with Volpina, and knows she was Lila. All Ladybug needs to tell him is that Lila stole the book from Adrien Agreste, and that she recovered it, and ask him what he thinks it means, and what (if anything) they can or should try to do about it. She doesn't need to mention Master Fu, only that Tikki informed her of the importance of the book and its origin. Since Cat already knows about Lila, Marinette should consider the theft of Adrien's book and its importance a matter that involves Cat as well. She might at least suspect that Lila was stealing the book on behalf of Hawk Moth.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Thearomalady wrote:

      She doesn't consult with Cat Noir because Tikki told her, indirectly, that she can't tell Cat Noir about Master Fu. "I know you told me never to bring her here again". It's a pretty clear message to not tell Cat Noir about Master Fu, and Ladybug/Marinette has always put a wall between her and Cat Noir. She trusts him, but she tries to not be personal with him (but she really sucks at not being personal about the little things).

      It's not as complicated as all that. Cat Noir was involved in the battle with Volpina, and knows she was Lila. All Ladybug needs to tell him is that Lila stole the book from Adrien Agreste, and that she recovered it, and ask him what he thinks it means, and what (if anything) they can or should try to do about it. She doesn't need to mention Master Fu, only that Tikki informed her of the importance of the book and its origin. Since Cat already knows about Lila, Marinette should consider the theft of Adrien's book and its importance a matter that involves Cat as well. She might at least suspect that Lila was stealing the book on behalf of Hawk Moth.

      But then he'd ask for the book back and she'd have to tell him she doesn't have it anymore and he'll want to know where it is. And then she'll have to either tell him about it or lie.

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    • But then he'd ask for the book back and she'd have to tell him she doesn't have it anymore and he'll want to know where it is. And then she'll have to either tell him about it or lie.

      Cat Noir cannot ask for the book "back" without revealing who he is.

      Regardless, telling the truth really is a lot easier than people make it out to be.

      "Tikki and I returned the book to its rightful owner, whose existence I only discovered by accident, and whose identity I've sworn never to reveal. That book must never fall into Hawk Moth's hands. I'm sorry, Cat. That's all I can tell you. You need to trust me."

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    • Positronic wrote:
      But then he'd ask for the book back and she'd have to tell him she doesn't have it anymore and he'll want to know where it is. And then she'll have to either tell him about it or lie.
      Cat Noir cannot ask for the book "back" without revealing who he is.

      Regardless, telling the truth really is a lot easier than people make it out to be.

      "Tikki and I returned the book to its rightful owner, whose existence I only discovered by accident, and whose identity I've sworn never to reveal. That book must never fall into Hawk Moth's hands. I'm sorry, Cat. That's all I can tell you. You need to trust me."

      Eh, fair, but he can still ask if she still has it and such and so on.

      Considering how his ability to go to school rides on getting that book back, he'd probably ask her more questions about the book and its current whereabouts. It was probably best she didn't say anything to him about it because she has a lot to explain to him otherwise and I don't think he'd be happy with being told "no" here. Plus, Marinette couldn't return the book if she told him that without it looking weird.

      I kinda hope they get in a fight because of her doing stuff like this to him. He does everything he can to protect her and his job is as thankless as mine is. I'd like to see him feeling a little upset that their unconditional trust doesn't run both ways and how she keeps secrets from him (but then again I'm pretty sure he's keeping one from her that he already knows, or suspects, who she is).

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    • You've really got to question the wisdom of Master Fu in this episode. While it's true that the book's return is crucial to Adrien's being able to return to school, there was never any guarantee that doing so would result in Gabriel Agreste rescinding his prior decision -- that is, at best, the desired, but not certain result.

      When we factor in the knowledge that the book has already been removed from Mr. Agreste's possession ONCE, and THEN subsequently stolen by Lila -- who is then akumatized by Hawk Moth -- AND that Gabriel Agreste himself is later akumatized by Hawk Moth, Master Fu merely obtaining the book's data by photographing the pages is not enough to balance the threat posed by the book itself being out of his possession, where it STILL might potentially be stolen by Hawk Moth. (Of course, they have no way of knowing that it was already IN his possession, during which time he too scanned all of its pertinent data.)

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    • Positronic wrote:
      You've really got to question the wisdom of Master Fu in this episode. While it's true that the book's return is crucial to Adrien's being able to return to school, there was never any guarantee that doing so would result in Gabriel Ageste rescinding his prior decision -- that is, at best, the desired, but not certain result.

      When we factor in the knowledge that the book has already been removed from Mr. Agreste's possession ONCE, and THEN subsequently stolen by Lila -- who is then akumatized by Hawk Moth -- AND that Gabriel Agreste himself is later akumatized by Hawk Moth, Master Fu merely obtaining the book's data by photographing the pages is not enough to balance the threat posed by the book itself being out of his possession, where it STILL might potentially be stolen by Hawk Moth. (Of course, they have no way of knowing that it was already IN his possession, during which time he too scanned all of its pertinent data.)

      But as long as there was a chance that it could undo it, Marinette would take it.

      I think Master Fu knows he's giving the book back to Hawk Moth. He also knows that Cat Noir lives in the same household as the book, so if he needs the book back, he can make contact with Adrien to do so. Even if he doesn't think Hawk Moth is Gabriel anymore, he knows the book can be protected by Cat Noir. He also knows where the book is now. He's not losing anything by giving the book back to Gabriel Agreste.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Eh, fair, but he can still ask if she still has it and such and so on.

      Considering how his ability to go to school rides on getting that book back, he'd probably ask her more questions about the book and its current whereabouts. It was probably best she didn't say anything to him about it because she has a lot to explain to him otherwise and I don't think he'd be happy with being told "no" here. Plus, Marinette couldn't return the book if she told him that without it looking weird.

      I kinda hope they get in a fight because of her doing stuff like this to him. He does everything he can to protect her and his job is as thankless as mine is. I'd like to see him feeling a little upset that their unconditional trust doesn't run both ways and how she keeps secrets from him (but then again I'm pretty sure he's keeping one from her that he already knows, or suspects, who she is).

      If she's going to Cat Noir with her information about the book, and not Adrien, then Cat can only agree to trust her and abide by her decision. Seeing as how he loves her, I think he DOES trust her, even if it would frustrate him. If Cat Noir appears anxious about the fact that Adrien isn't going to get his book back, then it looks like it's all up for him regarding his secret identity. He can't appear to be too frantic or curious, and can't reveal that he knows anything about the book other than what Ladybug tells him.
      But that is the nature of their relationship. Cat Noir trusts Ladybug because he loves her. Ladybug doesn't love Cat Noir (as far as she knows...) so there's nothing preventing her from keeping secrets from him. And as Marinette, her life as Ladybug must remain a secret from Adrien in spite of the fact that she loves him.

      All of this SHOULD have taken place BEFORE Gabriel's discovery that Adrien was responsible for taking the book, between the time when Tikki helped Marinette recover the book from where Lila had left it.

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    • But as long as there was a chance that it could undo it, Marinette would take it.

      I think Master Fu knows he's giving the book back to Hawk Moth. He also knows that Cat Noir lives in the same household as the book, so if he needs the book back, he can make contact with Adrien to do so. Even if he doesn't think Hawk Moth is Gabriel anymore, he knows the book can be protected by Cat Noir. He also knows where the book is now. He's not losing anything by giving the book back to Gabriel Agreste.

      That seems like kind of a curious idea to me, that Master Fu is NOT fooled by Hawk Moth's ploy of akumatizing himself (as Agreste) into the Collector to divert suspicion, and that he only allows Marinette to return the book as an act of kindness, because she's in love with Adrien -- while still allowing both Adrien and Marinette to continue thinking that the akumatization of Gabriel Agreste proves that he is NOT Hawk Moth.

      While if Master Fu believes Gabriel is Hawk Moth, it explains why he has nothing to lose by returning the book (since he now has the data he needs) -- he knows that Gabriel already had the book and has guessed that he scanned the data already, so returning the book is a mere formality that affords Hawk Moth no additional advantage. It does make me wonder why Master Fu would not disillusion Marinette (since he hasn't yet seen fit to reveal himself to Adrien) about Gabriel's deception, though.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      If she's going to Cat Noir with her information about the book, and not Adrien, then Cat can only agree to trust her and abide by her decision. Seeing as how he loves her, I think he DOES trust her, even if it would frustrate him. If Cat Noir appears anxious about the fact that Adrien isn't going to get his book back, then it looks like it's all up for him regarding his secret identity. He can't appear to be too frantic or curious, and can't reveal that he knows anything about the book other than what Ladybug tells him.
      But that is the nature of their relationship. Cat Noir trusts Ladybug because he loves her. Ladybug doesn't love Cat Noir (as far as she knows...) so there's nothing preventing her from keeping secrets from him. And as Marinette, her life as Ladybug must remain a secret from Adrien in spite of the fact that she loves him.

      Cat Noir is more secretive about his identity than Ladybug is, but when it comes to his father, he's more sloppy. I think if she questioned him about his intense interest in the book he might back down, but considering Adrien's desperation to get back to school, I don't think he would easily relent until she backed him into a corner. He doesn't care if she knows who he is- he just respects that she doesn't want to know. Her telling him would only make problems for her and it would distress Cat Noir, not that she has any way of knowing that. Aside from his initial reaction to the news, which she obviously registered as weird.

      There is something preventing her from keeping secrets- she views their relationship as a strictly professional one. She's as friendly with him as people are with their co-workers, but that's all. She mostly sticks to telling him what to do and keeping her distance from him. I think that's largely why she refuses to even consider that Adrien is Cat Noir, why she acts like Cat Noir doesn't attend her school (look how she freely names her classmates in front of him- she doesn't even entertain the idea they go to the same school), and why she scoffs at the idea that they may know each other out of costume. She does not want a personal relationship with Cat Noir, and she only ever tells him things he needs to know. Right now, to her, he does not need to know about the book or Master Fu. He just needs to know she thinks she knows who Hawk Moth is.

      Ladybug views him as her partner, her co-worker, and that's it. I don't think she's ever called him her friend that I can remember. She calls him her partner, she says they're a team, she vouches for his honesty, but I can't think of a single instance where she said "Cat Noir's my friend". Correct me if I'm wrong on that front. She also doesn't get too upset in "Timebreaker" when he's killed even though Marinette has poor control of her emotions. She gets upset, but nowhere near how upset she was about, say, Alya or Rose. Cat Noir, on the other hand, is more personable and affectionate with her. He wants to get to know her, but she shoots him down every time.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      But as long as there was a chance that it could undo it, Marinette would take it.

      I think Master Fu knows he's giving the book back to Hawk Moth. He also knows that Cat Noir lives in the same household as the book, so if he needs the book back, he can make contact with Adrien to do so. Even if he doesn't think Hawk Moth is Gabriel anymore, he knows the book can be protected by Cat Noir. He also knows where the book is now. He's not losing anything by giving the book back to Gabriel Agreste.

      That seems like kind of a curious idea to me, that Master Fu is NOT fooled by Hawk Moth's ploy of akumatizing himself (as Agreste) into the Collector to divert suspicion, and that he only allows Marinette to return the book as an act of kindness, because she's in love with Adrien -- while still allowing both Adrien and Marinette to continue thinking that the akumatization of Gabriel Agreste proves that he is NOT Hawk Moth.

      While if Master Fu believes Gabriel is Hawk Moth, it explains why he has nothing to lose by returning the book (since he now has the data he needs) -- he knows that Gabriel already had the book and has guessed that he scanned the data already, so returning the book is a mere formality that affords Hawk Moth no additional advantage. It does make me wonder why Master Fu would not disillusion Marinette (since he hasn't yet seen fit to reveal himself to Adrien) about Gabriel's deception, though.

      I think he can tell that Marinette isn't comfortable thinking Gabriel, the father of the guy she's in love with, is Hawk Moth, so he might think she's just not ready for that kind of information. He does imply to her that just because he akumatised himself doesn't mean it's impossible for him to be Hawk Moth. It's up to her to take that knowledge and work with it, and slowly try to come to terms with the plausibility of it. His hesitation (I felt anyway that he seemed hesitant or reluctant to reply to her) in saying that to her is why I think he probably wasn't fooled.

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    • You know it wasn't until re-working my timeline for this show that I realised something.

      This episode makes no sense when you remember that it happens on the same day as "Volpina". Adrien already HAD fencing in "Volpina", but we know those two episodes happen on the same day because Marinette gets the book and talks with Tikki about it, and they take it to Master Fu while Marinette is presumably on her lunch break, because she goes back to school after talking with Master Fu. It can't be the next day because of Adrien's fencing lessons meaning "the next day" is Saturday. In fact, it's hard to buy it's the same day because Lila and Adrien meet "after school" and Adrien had already gone home for lunch (his fencing classes are apparently after lunch). But it's thoroughly unlikely that an entire week passed before Gabriel was aware of the book going missing. I suppose the only possible way this could make sense is Adrien DOES have two fencing classes on Friday- one when he first gets to school in the morning, and one right after lunch. But this still leaves the plothole of how Lila was able to make herself an instant celebrity without Marinette hearing a blip, since she could have done that over lunch in the orginal scenario.

      So what I assume happens is we see Adrien in the morning when the episode starts, he gets the book, goes to school and meets Lila, who wants to see him after morning classesd during lunch. The fight with Lila takes up part of their lunch break, and Marinette's meeting with Master Fu takes up the rest for her. For Adrien, he goes home to find the book missing and almost immediately gets in trouble for stealing the book that morning. Marinette goes back to school, and finds out Adrien is not in his afternoon fencing class, nor is he in class at all, and he is not coming back, and transforms so she can speak with Cat Noir about Hawk Moth. The Collector takes up most of their remaining school hours. Marinette then goes to see Master Fu about who Hawk Moth could be, and he takes pictures of all the pages in the book so Marinette can return the book to Gabriel. Marinette returns the book to Gabriel that evening, presumably after school has let out so it doesn't look odd that she waited so long to return the book. So Adrien was only pulled from school for an afternoon. I think that's how the episodes go.

      So... assuming it somehow happens on one day, which it has to do, this episode confirms Hawk Moth CAN akumatise more than one person in a day.

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    • Mmh I dunno, Thomas Astruc always seemed against any timeline theory, maybe because they don’t pay much attention to it themselves. Although if it is possible for it to have happened all in one day, all the better.

      I remember something about the May 22nd date appearing in Alya’s Ladyblog both in Lady Wifi and Volpina (which would be impossible), think of the mess that would happen if it all indeed happened in those days!

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    • Maetch wrote:
      Plus she's still recovering from the mayhem that was Volpina, so her mind's not fully relaxed yet.

      Yeah, you're absolutely right. It just wasn't immediately apparent to me. After all, it's been an entire YEAR between the first airing of "Volpina" and "The Collector", but after going back and watching Volpina again, it's apparent that The Collector continues IMMEDIATELY from the end of that episode. She hasn't even had TIME to recover, and Volpina did rattle her pretty badly in that episode. The lies, the illusions, Marinette's jealousy, anger and fear (over Volpina's illusionary threatening of Adrien's life, which seems very real to her). Those were a lot of emotional upsets coming at her like dodgeballs straight to the head.

      Then there's Tikki's anxiousness over the book in that episode, and there really was no time for them to think it over and consider options. They went straight to Master Fu. And yet... if that's the case, then Marinette should be even more aware of the consequences of spinning a web of lies, since Lila's lies and deceptions are still fresh in her mind from the same day.

      But Master Fu's revelation of the connection between the missing book and the two Miraculouses, indicating that he always believed that they were all in Hawk Moth's possession hits Marinette like a ton of bricks. It's just too much for her to process. Upon leaving Master Fu's, Mari's flipping out in panic, and Tikki has to try to calm her down.

      Okay. Marinette's misjudgments DO make a lot more sense when you paste the two episodes end-to-end.

      EDIT: And just as I posted this, I see that Thearomalady had already come to the same conclusion independently.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Light, Dark And Harmony Risen To Unison wrote:
      Positronic wrote:
      Oh, they could have done it. But how disappointing would the sudden revelation of introducing Gabriel's evil twin brother have been? That would have been super-lame.
      I agree, we would want something more exciting not just a twin brother. For me that's kinda old.

      Basically though, any reveal of Hawk Moth's ID that did NOT turn out to be Gabriel Agreste would need to introduce a completely new character into the series, because there's no way to build a case for any pre-existing character that will work within the framework of already-revealed clues. AND since we've already seen his true ID in Origins Part 1, albeit only shown as a shadowy figure, it ALSO has to be someone who at least slightly resembles (AND sounds like) Gabriel. With a convincing connection to Mrs. Agreste as well, a believable reason that he'd be fixated on her picture within the locket he's holding before transforming into Hawk Moth for the very first time. That kind of paints them into a corner with a limited number of options.

      It really doesn't matter though, because it's just plain dirty pool as far as the mystery-solving game is concerned. If you toss out a dozen red herrings, and then just interject a new character never seen or heard of before, that means that NOBODY ever had a fair chance at figuring it out -- it's a CHEAT.

      They would have to, or what if they brought back a character lets say ( for an example, this is not what i actually think) Mr Kubdel the ywould have to bring him back or ( another example that i don't think is true) Mr Ramier.

      Hope your trying to see what i'm getting at.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Maetch wrote:
      Plus she's still recovering from the mayhem that was Volpina, so her mind's not fully relaxed yet.
      Yeah, you're absolutely right. It just wasn't immediately apparent to me. After all, it's been an entire YEAR between the first airing of "Volpina" and "The Collector", but after going back and watching Volpina again, it's apparent that The Collector continues IMMEDIATELY from the end of that episode. She hasn't even had TIME to recover, and Volpina did rattle her pretty badly in that episode. The lies, the illusions, Marinette's jealousy, anger and fear (over Volpina's illusionary threatening of Adrien's life, which seems very real to her). Those were a lot of emotional upsets coming at her like dodgeballs straight to the head.

      Then there's Tikki's anxiousness over the book in that episode, and there really was no time for them to think it over and consider options. They went straight to Master Fu. And yet... if that's the case, then Marinette should be even more aware of the consequences of spinning a web of lies, since Lila's lies and deceptions are still fresh in her mind from the same day.

      But Master Fu's revelation of the connection between the missing book and the two Miraculouses, indicating that he always believed that they were all in Hawk Moth's possession hits Marinette like a ton of bricks. It's just too much for her to process. Upon leaving Master Fu's, Mari's flipping out in panic, and Tikki has to try to calm her down.

      Okay. Marinette's misjudgments DO make a lot more sense when you paste the two episodes end-to-end.

      EDIT: And just as I posted this, I see that Thearomalady had already come to the same conclusion independently.

      Her misjudgement was her not wanting her crush to be the villain she's been fighting all this time and thus lying to proctect him, which means if he had been Hawk Moth, she would have been his accomplice for letting her feelings get in the way. Plus not trusting the guy who guards the miraculouses, and that her kwami said they could trust, after all he healed her and everything, plus gave her his earrings and Chat Noir's miraculous, and please, to the people who thinks she doesn,t know that he gave Chat Noir his ring, come on, his symbol is right next to hers, kinda obvious that if he didn't have 2 of them, he would have the rest, I say it's really one of her stupidest move. Seriously, she must have been completely blind not to see it. Love really makes her stupid. I'm starting to really hope that Luka will take her mind off Adrien, it's way to dangerous for her to be with him. I just hope she won't do the same things she does to Adrien to Luka too. Not sure Juleka would approve. But Master Fu giving her the earrings and Chat Noir the ring to fight Hawk Moth pretty much cements him as a good guy, plus his healing of Tikki, plus Tikki telling that he's trustworthy, nope it's pretty much Marinette's judgement that sparkled all the episode, plus the last one. Next time when a girl tries to lie to impress her crush, don't call her out rashly in front of said guy, and don't stalk them like if you had the rights over the guy. If she wouldn,t have, Tikki wouldn't have discovered the book, Lila and Gabriel wouldn't have been akumatized.

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    • Now that we know who Hawk Moth is(to be honest it shocked me quite badly), I wish we'll get to know what's his "secret wish" and why he needs Ladybug and Cat Miraculouses for it. I think it might have something to do with Mrs.Agreste. It's already revealed that he dearly loved his wife and after she dissappeared, he hasn't been the same man.In Collector, Gabriel says that the book "was the last gift she gave him before vanishing." My theory is that Gabriel and Mrs.Agreste(who I'll call Rebecca for this theory)were the previous Miraculous holders. A proof of it was (maybe)revealed in Volpina:when Plagg gets into the safe, there're a picture of her and Peacock Miraculous. But why doesn't he notice them? What if something "blocks" him from seeing them(Duusu herself maybe?)?! But back to the theory cos Plagg-can't-see-them-though-they-are-next-to-him doesn't matter right now. Judging from how Gabriel says about Rebecca giving HIM the book and peacock miraculous next to her picture, I can persuade that she knows A LOT of things about Miraculouses. But how did she got the book and Moth and Peacock Miraculouses? Here let's bring in Master Fu's mistake. He said he made a mistake that caused the Guardian Temple to be destroyed, Moth and Peacock Miras as well as the book to be lost.

      And now bringing it together:Master fu does a mistake of revealing temple's location to someone evil who then attacks the temple. Fu flees, but loses Moth and Peacock Miras as well as the booking a process. What happens then is unknown, but somehow,unknown time, the lost items fall into the hands of Rebecca, who begins to do a secret research about them. She also uses Peacock Miraculous to be a superhero. As an adult woman, she meets Gabriel,they marry and have a little boy named Adrien together. She decides to reveal her secret to her husband and, after a lot of searching, come across the info about a Guardian Temple in Tibet and some old wise monks who could help them. Rebecca and Gabriel decide to go there, but something happens. Evils who want the power of the Miraculouses return, causing Rebecca to go missing or maybe even die. Heartbroken and traumatized, Gabriel becomes overprotective of his son:he already lost his wife and fears for his son. Still, he secretly knows about a ritual that can bring dead ones back to life, but for that, he need Ladybug and Cat Miraculouses. So he chooses the evil path and what happens in the future is for us to see...

      But remember, that's JUST a theory, a Miraculous theory!

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    • BelieveInMagic814 wrote:
      This is the official discussion thread for S2E1, "The Collector".

      Post and share your thoughts on the episode here. You will not need to mark spoilers in this thread.

      lol i just watched 2 first episodes im so hypeddd!!! adrienette feels so hardddd 

      WHEN THEY DANCE AND THE HUG AHHHH! my mom thank i was crazy xd

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    • Chi of Darkness wrote:
      Positronic wrote:
      Maetch wrote:
      Plus she's still recovering from the mayhem that was Volpina, so her mind's not fully relaxed yet.
      Yeah, you're absolutely right. It just wasn't immediately apparent to me. After all, it's been an entire YEAR between the first airing of "Volpina" and "The Collector", but after going back and watching Volpina again, it's apparent that The Collector continues IMMEDIATELY from the end of that episode. She hasn't even had TIME to recover, and Volpina did rattle her pretty badly in that episode. The lies, the illusions, Marinette's jealousy, anger and fear (over Volpina's illusionary threatening of Adrien's life, which seems very real to her). Those were a lot of emotional upsets coming at her like dodgeballs straight to the head.

      Then there's Tikki's anxiousness over the book in that episode, and there really was no time for them to think it over and consider options. They went straight to Master Fu. And yet... if that's the case, then Marinette should be even more aware of the consequences of spinning a web of lies, since Lila's lies and deceptions are still fresh in her mind from the same day.

      But Master Fu's revelation of the connection between the missing book and the two Miraculouses, indicating that he always believed that they were all in Hawk Moth's possession hits Marinette like a ton of bricks. It's just too much for her to process. Upon leaving Master Fu's, Mari's flipping out in panic, and Tikki has to try to calm her down.

      Okay. Marinette's misjudgments DO make a lot more sense when you paste the two episodes end-to-end.

      EDIT: And just as I posted this, I see that Thearomalady had already come to the same conclusion independently.

      Her misjudgement was her not wanting her crush to be the villain she's been fighting all this time and thus lying to proctect him, which means if he had been Hawk Moth, she would have been his accomplice for letting her feelings get in the way. Plus not trusting the guy who guards the miraculouses, and that her kwami said they could trust, after all he healed her and everything, plus gave her his earrings and Chat Noir's miraculous, and please, to the people who thinks she doesn,t know that he gave Chat Noir his ring, come on, his symbol is right next to hers, kinda obvious that if he didn't have 2 of them, he would have the rest, I say it's really one of her stupidest move. Seriously, she must have been completely blind not to see it. Love really makes her stupid. I'm starting to really hope that Luka will take her mind off Adrien, it's way to dangerous for her to be with him. I just hope she won't do the same things she does to Adrien to Luka too. Not sure Juleka would approve. But Master Fu giving her the earrings and Chat Noir the ring to fight Hawk Moth pretty much cements him as a good guy, plus his healing of Tikki, plus Tikki telling that he's trustworthy, nope it's pretty much Marinette's judgement that sparkled all the episode, plus the last one. Next time when a girl tries to lie to impress her crush, don't call her out rashly in front of said guy, and don't stalk them like if you had the rights over the guy. If she wouldn,t have, Tikki wouldn't have discovered the book, Lila and Gabriel wouldn't have been akumatized.


      No, after reassessing Marinette's reactions in light of what she's JUST gone through that day, I have to defend her. She is just 15. The book is something new, she barely has an inking of its significance at first. She only knows a few things about it at first: 1) Lila tried to steal it,  2) It belongs (as far as she knows) to Adrien, and  3) Tikki tells her she recognizes it, it's really important, and it shouldn't be in Adrien's possession because it belongs to someone else. So first off she's confused about why Adrien would have this book, and it should turn out to be something Tikki knows is full of important information about the Miraculous heroes. WHY would it have found its way into Adrien's hands? There's no time for her to think about it or even guess. She's already reeling from a very bumpy emotional rollercoaster of events fighting Volpina. SHE's the one to recognize Lila/Volpina for the liar she is immediately, but it seems like both Adrien and Cat Noir don't want to believe her -- it's very frustrating for her, trying to get them to see it. It's starting to look like they might be buying into Volpina's story that she's just jealous. As the icing on the cake, before they defeat Volpina, she pulls out one more ace -- she threatens to KILL Adrien -- it seems very real to her, and she's at her wits' end until realizing that it IS an illusion after all -- but she had no way of knowing, other than taking Cat Noir's word for it, and she just can't take a chance he might be wrong. They beat her, but shortly thereafter, she has to meet Master Fu (in an official sense) for the first time. He's not the veterinarian she thought he was, although she must have suspected something was up with him. She still couldn't have guessed he was the one who gave her and Cat their Miraculous. There are just TONS of new ideas and information being shoved at her today in a very short space of time. It's all happening TOO fast for her to keep up, especially after the emotionally exhausting fight with Volpina. When Master Fu explains about the book, and then she realizes that the last person to have the book was Hawk Moth --- that's the last straw. She lies as a delaying tactic, because she just hasn't had time to process all this, to figure out what it might mean. Adrien might be... HAWK MOTH?? That CAN'T possibly be right... can it? But how could he get the book then? It's just too much, too fast. It's too much pressure, she can't think. It feels realistic.

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    • @Pegasushunt125 - No one said Plagg didn't notice the picture of Mrs. Agreste & the Peacock Miraculous. Plagg has ADD, so he tends to focus on one thing until he loses interest. He picked the book. What's the big deal with a picture of Mrs. Agreste? He's seen them before. The book may just have been more interesting to him than the Peacock brooch because it's larger. We don't know what the operating manual says about how the Miraculous works, either, so maybe he can't touch it. When he touches Adrien's ring he gets absorbed, you know?

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    • NintendoSoul wrote:
      Mmh I dunno, Thomas Astruc always seemed against any timeline theory, maybe because they don’t pay much attention to it themselves. Although if it is possible for it to have happened all in one day, all the better.

      I remember something about the May 22nd date appearing in Alya’s Ladyblog both in Lady Wifi and Volpina (which would be impossible), think of the mess that would happen if it all indeed happened in those days!

      Lady Wifi is a September episode, because Chloe says Halloween is in a month. The date 22 May appears in "Darkblade".

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    • Positronic wrote:
      @Pegasushunt125 - No one said Plagg didn't notice the picture of Mrs. Agreste & the Peacock Miraculous. Plagg has ADD, so he tends to focus on one thing until he loses interest. He picked the book. What's the big deal with a picture of Mrs. Agreste? He's seen them before. The book may just have been more interesting to him than the Peacock brooch because it's larger. We don't know what the operating manual says about how the Miraculous works, either, so maybe he can't touch it. When he touches Adrien's ring he gets absorbed, you know?

      Please don't throw "ADD" around like that, it doesn't actually work that way. And he doesn't get absorbed by the ring from touching it that we know of.

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    • I hope Adrien is still a little suspicious

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    • Steven Bomb 17 wrote:
      I hope Adrien is still a little suspicious

      Of who Ladybug is? There's more than a little evidence that he is suspicious if not knows. He's a lot more mature than Ladybug is, so in the case of Hawk Moth, he might have come to accept it if he couldn't avoid it.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Light, Dark And Harmony Risen To Unison wrote:
      Positronic wrote:
      Oh, they could have done it. But how disappointing would the sudden revelation of introducing Gabriel's evil twin brother have been? That would have been super-lame.
      I agree, we would want something more exciting not just a twin brother. For me that's kinda old.

      Basically though, any reveal of Hawk Moth's ID that did NOT turn out to be Gabriel Agreste would need to introduce a completely new character into the series, because there's no way to build a case for any pre-existing character that will work within the framework of already-revealed clues. AND since we've already seen his true ID in Origins Part 1, albeit only shown as a shadowy figure, it ALSO has to be someone who at least slightly resembles (AND sounds like) Gabriel. With a convincing connection to Mrs. Agreste as well, a believable reason that he'd be fixated on her picture within the locket he's holding before transforming into Hawk Moth for the very first time. That kind of paints them into a corner with a limited number of options.

      It really doesn't matter though, because it's just plain dirty pool as far as the mystery-solving game is concerned. If you toss out a dozen red herrings, and then just interject a new character never seen or heard of before, that means that NOBODY ever had a fair chance at figuring it out -- it's a CHEAT.

      After I watched 5 episodes of this series, I knew who Hawk Moth was. I went to school the next day and told my friend (who watched ML but never told me about it) that he was so obviously Gabriel Agreste and the plot complications it would cause (not to mention another "I am your father" scene, you can never go wrong with those!). She told me, "Oh, yeah, everyone is apart of that theory." "Wait a second, there's an established theory?"

      In the few moments I started to have my doubts, my attention would go to Mr. Kubdel. I mean, he looks kinda similar, and has that deep, elegant voice, but he's such a minor character that I didn't see any point in giving him such a big role. The audience hardly knows him, but it doesn't seem like he has anything to plot revenge for, while Gabriel does. I was very satisfied with this outcome.

      Also, Gabriel knows who Cat Noir is. Just saying. With a high pitched voice and shaking hands.

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    • I never liked nor understood the "Mr Kubdel is Hawk Moth" theory because of how people acted about it and how little sense it made. Mr Kubdel might resemble Hawk Moth when transformed in terms of bone structure, but that's it and he doesn't look like the untransformed silhouette we had to go on previously. I liked that people were trying to find other people to be Hawk Moth besides Gabriel, but that side of the debate never made much sense to me once they started naming specific people like a twin/brother, a cousin, a former rival, or Mr Kubdel. It made sense to argue why Gabriel wasn't Hawk Moth (this was something I did because I really like playing both sides of arguments), but not to argue about specifically who it could be if not Gabriel. Once you got in that territory, people tended to never provide why that would work or why it would be more interesting than Gabriel past the plot twist reveal. I was always hoping someone would, but I never saw someone do that, or at least provide one that I thought was interesting.

      I believe Gabriel knows or has a strong suspicion about Cat Noir (his "very soon" comment could be about how he was planning to make another akuma soon), and he might have his suspicions about Ladybug, but I think Cat Noir knows who Ladybug is or is very suspicious of Marinette. His actions throughout "Horrificator" set up a lot of red flags for me.

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    • The fact that Nathalie knows Gabriel's identity was the real surprise, at least for me. What does she have to gain from all this?

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    • Ugh! It bugs me that Nathalie knows Gabriel is HawkMoth but she does not tell anyone/do anything about it! Also HawkMoth knows who Chat Noir is which means he is okay with hurting his own son in order to get what he wants!! :c

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    • Emmae25 wrote:
      Ugh! It bugs me that Nathalie knows Gabriel is HawkMoth but she does not tell anyone/do anything about it! Also HawkMoth knows who Chat Noir is which means he is okay with hurting his own son in order to get what he wants!! :c

      Well, we don't know what his goal is. She might have a very, very good reason for not saying anything and Gabriel might have to put Adrien in harm's way, but that suit protects him from harm better than anything could. In a way, he's safer as Cat Noir than as Adrien.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Positronic wrote:
      @Pegasushunt125 - No one said Plagg didn't notice the picture of Mrs. Agreste & the Peacock Miraculous. Plagg has ADD, so he tends to focus on one thing until he loses interest. He picked the book. What's the big deal with a picture of Mrs. Agreste? He's seen them before. The book may just have been more interesting to him than the Peacock brooch because it's larger. We don't know what the operating manual says about how the Miraculous works, either, so maybe he can't touch it. When he touches Adrien's ring he gets absorbed, you know?
      Please don't throw "ADD" around like that, it doesn't actually work that way. And he doesn't get absorbed by the ring from touching it that we know of.

      Not "throwing it around". Personal experience. I have it, and that's how it works for me. If I don't focus on one thing at a time, then it's hard to pay attention to anything at all. I'm not good at multitasking. I miss things, or get distracted by something else, and then lose interest in the previous thing. It might work a little differently in some other people, depending on their age or other factors like hyperactivity.

      As for the Miraculous thing, I just said we don't know what the rules are, or exactly how it works for the Kwami. We've never seen a Kwami touch a Miraculous, except when they're being absorbed by it. Maybe they can touch it, but not necessarily. Maybe the Kwamis can touch their own Miraculous, but not a different Miraculous. We just don't know, just like we didn't know Kwamis can't be photographed until Plagg told us.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      Not "throwing it around". Personal experience. I have it, and that's how it works for me.

      You can still throw it around because Plagg does not have a diagnosis saying he has ADD, and because people DO throw it around to describe a thing like Plagg's inability to pay attention to something other than cheese for more than a nanosecond. He's easily distracted. If this comes off as rude, it's because this is what I'm told at my job and what the kids I work with are told- do not just say someone has a diagnosis they don't have.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Positronic wrote:

      Not "throwing it around". Personal experience. I have it, and that's how it works for me.

      You can still throw it around because Plagg does not have a diagnosis saying he has ADD, and because people DO throw it around to describe a thing like Plagg's inability to pay attention to something other than cheese for more than a nanosecond. He's easily distracted. If this comes off as rude, it's because this is what I'm told at my job and what the kids I work with are told- do not just say someone has a diagnosis they don't have.


      It does come off as rude. Do you have ADD? I do. Plagg is a fictional character, and we're not at your job. I shouldn't have to preface everything I say by reminding people that it's my opinion, that should be taken as given.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      It does come off as rude. Do you have ADD? I do. Plagg is a fictional character, and we're not at your job. I shouldn't have to preface everything I say by reminding people that it's my opinion, that should be taken as given.

      But you're not phrasing it as an opinion, you're stating it as fact.

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    • Regardless, the main topic should not devolve into a petty argument. I only spoke up to separate opinion from facts. The topic at hand is Season 2, Episode 1. The Collector, not an opinion about Plagg.

      I think I like the way the Season 2 episodes are moving in a more character-driven direction, and I really like how they just immediately dumped the "Hawk Moth is Gabriel Agreste" information at the start of the episode and went on with it. I'm glad that debate will be put to rest soon for everyone involved. It can technically be put to rest, but not completely until December when the US officially gets it. I was quite surprised that Nathalie knew, and I'm eager to see if this means Nathalie will appear more and we'll learn more about her as the season goes on.

      It is interesting, though. If that red and black villain is indeed Nathalie, I want to know why she gets akumatised. Gabriel can't exactly fire her, but we know he's not at all unwilling to put people in danger for the sake of his plans. As the Collector, while fully in control of his own mind, he goes after Nathalie and Adrien, and he seems to know Adrien is Cat Noir. Whatever his plans are, he knows he has to put people close to him in danger to acheive it. Though, to be fair, Adrien more or less couldn't be any safer as Cat Noir.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Positronic wrote:

      It does come off as rude. Do you have ADD? I do. Plagg is a fictional character, and we're not at your job. I shouldn't have to preface everything I say by reminding people that it's my opinion, that should be taken as given.

      But you're not phrasing it as an opinion, you're stating it as fact.


      The actual facts are these: Plagg is a fictional character, so he doesn't really have any physiological, psychological, or behavioral characteristics. Instead he has writers and animators who decide what he's going to do at any given time in any given episode. He can't be diagnosed, regardless of whether the person stating that opinion has a medical degree or not. So there's no need to get uptight over what anyone thinks about him or what he does.

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    • This is getting off-topic. Headcanons are allowed, but this discussion is not about Plagg's specific characterization. Respect each other's opinions and move on, and let's put the focus back towards the episode. Thank you.

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    • Tansyflower wrote:
      This is getting off-topic. Headcanons are allowed, but this discussion is not about Plagg's specific characterization. Respect each other's opinions and move on, and let's put the focus back towards the episode. Thank you.

      I tried to. I'll reiterate, I suppose:

      Thearomalady wrote:
      I think I like the way the Season 2 episodes are moving in a more character-driven direction, and I really like how they just immediately dumped the "Hawk Moth is Gabriel Agreste" information at the start of the episode and went on with it. I'm glad that debate will be put to rest soon for everyone involved. It can technically be put to rest, but not completely until December when the US officially gets it. I was quite surprised that Nathalie knew, and I'm eager to see if this means Nathalie will appear more and we'll learn more about her as the season goes on.

      It is interesting, though. If that red and black villain is indeed Nathalie, I want to know why she gets akumatised. Gabriel can't exactly fire her, but we know he's not at all unwilling to put people in danger for the sake of his plans. As the Collector, while fully in control of his own mind, he goes after Nathalie and Adrien, and he seems to know Adrien is Cat Noir. Whatever his plans are, he knows he has to put people close to him in danger to acheive it. Though, to be fair, Adrien more or less couldn't be any safer as Cat Noir.
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    • I have this fan theory that Gabriel is deliberately being cold to Adrien to make him feel sad or angry and then akumatize him. He sends him to classes like fencing so that he'll be strong and agile and be able to beat the heroes. And on a side note, does Gabriel know who Cat Noir is? Can someone give me proof that he knows it's Adrien?

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    • Tansyflower wrote:
      This is getting off-topic. Headcanons are allowed, but this discussion is not about Plagg's specific characterization. Respect each other's opinions and move on, and let's put the focus back towards the episode. Thank you.


      I'm not here to fight with anyone. Sometimes we talk about the characters AS THOUGH they were real, even though we know that they're not. It's more fun somehow if they seem real to us, and we just respond to things that resonate with us personally, or that we recognize in our own experience, either in ourselves or in people we've met.

      I don't want to have to be circumspect all the time and have to constantly add comments like "Even though the characters are fictional and I'm talking hypothetically as if they were real, it's my opinion that..." but I think that everyone should assume that that's implied in everything I have to say about the characters, unless I'm talking about something about the writers or animators. Sorry if I've confused anyone by not making that clear. Let's move on.

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    • Lliania wrote:
      I think Marinette has always been flawed in certain aspects so her not telling Master Fu as to who she got the book from was only natural (given her current self) so far.

      Aside from her being too head over heels over Adrien, so far in the series, I noticed that Marinette has this tendency to be too certain of her decisions and not second guess them. Her decisions are also usually pretty affected by her emotions. So at that point where Master Fu asked the question with regard to the origin of the book, her fear for Adrien overrid everything and she lied.

      I'm not saying it's a positive thing on her end. Personally, I've always thought that her obsession over Adrien is just too much. But at the same time, I think it will still take a quite a lot of growth for her to be able to think of matters involving Adrien with sufficient objectivity. I mean even in Volpina and the Christmas Special, she still was letting her emotions get the better of her and her decisions. 

      I'd like to see Marinette portrayed as realistically imperfect and capable of making mistakes, or acting impulsively or emotionally or even over-reacting on occasion, and I can think of examples where all of these have happened. She's still young and has a lot to learn, and it's difficult to balance her life as Marinette with her responsibilities as Ladybug.

      Marinette should be growing and learning lessons as time goes on, and not just repeating the same kind of mistakes over and over, and then having to correct them. She should be learning some lessons the hard way, but trying not to repeat those mistakes again. She's got to be more careful than a normal teenager, because things she does can impact whether villains are akumatized (Volpina and Santa Claws) and those kind of things create dangerous situations for a lot of people. It's up to her to become MORE responsible than an average teenager, and learn not to leap before she looks. Right now she most often makes big mistakes when she does things impulsively in response to something involving Adrien -- like when she wants to shut down Lila's vamping of Adrien, so she goes out of her way to put on a big show to embarass her very publicly, instead of revealing Lila's deception in a low-key way.

      It isn't really clear where the Christmas special fits in between other episodes, but it has to be either before "Volpina" or after "The Collector", since those two episodes occur back-to-back. In the Christmas special, she's so aggressively defending Adrien against a stranger dressed as Santa Claus because she's afraid for his safety that she doesn't even stop to listen to Adrien when he tells her the man is okay, that he's just giving him a ride home. That makes two examples where she just acted on impulse without thinking, and both of them resulted in creating a situation where she hurt someone's feelings, making them ripe for akumatization. If she doesn't begin watching herself, she could wind up responsible for the creation of as many supervillains as Chloe. Her feelings for Adrien are her great Achilles' Heel, and if she's not careful, he could become HER "Mrs. Agreste".

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Lliania wrote:
      I think Marinette has always been flawed in certain aspects so her not telling Master Fu as to who she got the book from was only natural (given her current self) so far.

      Aside from her being too head over heels over Adrien, so far in the series, I noticed that Marinette has this tendency to be too certain of her decisions and not second guess them. Her decisions are also usually pretty affected by her emotions. So at that point where Master Fu asked the question with regard to the origin of the book, her fear for Adrien overrid everything and she lied.

      I'm not saying it's a positive thing on her end. Personally, I've always thought that her obsession over Adrien is just too much. But at the same time, I think it will still take a quite a lot of growth for her to be able to think of matters involving Adrien with sufficient objectivity. I mean even in Volpina and the Christmas Special, she still was letting her emotions get the better of her and her decisions. 

      I'd like to see Marinette portrayed as realistically imperfect and capable of making mistakes, or acting impulsively or emotionally or even over-reacting on occasion, and I can think of examples where all of these have happened. She's still young and has a lot to learn, and it's difficult to balance her life as Marinette with her responsibilities as Ladybug.

      Marinette should be growing and learning lessons as time goes on, and not just repeating the same kind of mistakes over and over, and then having to correct them. She should be learning some lessons the hard way, but trying not to repeat those mistakes again. She's got to be more careful than a normal teenager, because things she does can impact whether villains are akumatized (Volpina and Santa Claws) and those kind of things create dangerous situations for a lot of people. It's up to her to become MORE responsible than an average teenager, and learn not to leap before she looks. Right now she most often makes big mistakes when she does things impulsively in response to something involving Adrien -- like when she wants to shut down Lila's vamping of Adrien, so she goes out of her way to put on a big show to embarass her very publicly, instead of revealing Lila's deception in a low-key way.

      It isn't really clear where the Christmas special fits in between other episodes, but it has to be either before "Volpina" or after "The Collector", since those two episodes occur back-to-back. In the Christmas special, she's so aggressively defending Adrien against a stranger dressed as Santa Claus because she's afraid for his safety that she doesn't even stop to listen to Adrien when he tells her the man is okay, that he's just giving him a ride home. That makes two examples where she just acted on impulse without thinking, and both of them resulted in creating a situation where she hurt someone's feelings, making them ripe for akumatization. If she doesn't begin watching herself, she could wind up responsible for the creation of as many supervillains as Chloe. Her feelings for Adrien are her great Achilles' Heel, and if she's not careful, he could become HER "Mrs. Agreste".

      I 100% agree with you! She needs to be more careful or she could end up with a reputation like Chloe´s. But I have noticed that she does tend to apoligize after she realizes she make a mistake. Hopefully she can turn herself around.

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    • I think Marinette's recklessness would have to have a very direct concequence she can see happen herself to affect her. Akumatisation is not a direct concequence, I don't think. Not unless it's her own or someone she's really close to getting hurt or akumatised because of her jealousy. She seems hard-pressed to learn lessons.

      But it cannot be stressed enough that "Volpina" and "The Collector" happen on exactly the same day. Marinette's judgement in that episode wasn't very good, so it shouldn't be that good in "The Collector", either. At least we now know why Hawk Moth doesn't seem interested in akumatising Marinette or Adrien- he seems to suspect they're Ladybug and Cat Noir.

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    • Someone may have already said this - but if this occured straight after Volpina, where is Lila? Did I miss her or something? I was hoping she would be a recurring character like Season 1 suggested.

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    • Slabcity wrote:
      Someone may have already said this - but if this occured straight after Volpina, where is Lila? Did I miss her or something? I was hoping she would be a recurring character like Season 1 suggested.

      If she's not in Marinette's class, her lack of appearance makes sense. Someone said she was in Marinette's class, but she doesn't actually seem to be. They didn't spend much time in school and Lila may have also just refused to come back to school in the afternoon.

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    • That's what I long to see. If Marinette doesn't appear to be learning a lesson from mistakes she makes in one episode, and avoiding that same type of mistake in a later episode, then it makes her appear to be not very smart. Yet there are plenty of examples in different episodes where she DOES think, and does appear to be smarter than an average 15 year-old. I just want to see more examples that prove she uses her brain and isn't just a pretty girl with a nice personality and good intentions. It's going to become aggravating to watch the constant reiteration of examples that show that she's so boy-crazy that those little hearts swirling around her head are emitting EMPs that short-circuit her brainwaves and reduce her to a scatterbrained airhead.

      Regarding the specific incident at the beginning of "The Collector" where she lies to Master Fu, there are a few ameliorating circumstances to list in her defense of the scene, as a plausible/realistic response at that moment.

      1)  She had just been through the emotional wringer earlier that day with the whole Lila/Volpina thing. That had to be one of the most emotionally exhausting situations she's ever had to deal with, and she's just worn out. She made some bad mistakes at the beginning of that, but admits she was wrong and apologizes to Lila at the end of the episode -- but too late, the damage was done. While you could say that Lila made her own bed, it's still a bad mark against Mari for catalyzing the meltdown.

      2)  Ever since Tikki noticed the book, Marinette has been bombarded by one new revelation after another. The book contains information about ancient superheroes, ones that existed in the distant past. There is a Ladybug in it, a Volpina, and a Hawk Moth. There is secret information about the heroes written in code. The book was formerly kept by the Order of the Guardians of the Miraculous, who were charged with its protection and the protection of the Miraculous, and with choosing the keepers of those Miraculous. The book went missing along with the Peacock and Butterfly Miraculous when the Guardians temple was destroyed, and Master Fu is the last known surviving member of the Order. And finally -- Master Fu believed that that after the book went missing, it was in the possession of Hawk Moth. She has learned all of this information within the last few hours, and most of it within the last few minutes. She hasn't had time to think about the ramifications of all of this, and how it will impact her life as Ladybug. Most shocking to her of all is that she can't fathom what all this has to do with Adrien Agreste. Does it imply that HE is Hawk Moth? It's too much for her to sort out in such a short time.

      3)  Despite the fact that earlier that same day she called Lila, who had claimed to be descended from one of those ancient superheroes in the book, "More like a super-LIAR!", and declared to Adrien, when he protested "Hey, wasn't that kinda HARSH?" that "I don't put up with LIES. Especially when they're about ME.", Marinette does lie, prevaricate, dissemble, tell half-truths, dodge the truth, and selectively omit facts -- frequently. She lies to her own parents, her teachers at school, and her friends -- and especially to Adrien. She's required to, by her agreement with Tikki to keep her life as Ladybug a secret from everyone. She's lied so often to protect her secret, and had to invent excuses on the fly when surprised by questions, that she's almost fallen into making up lies on the spur of the moment as a habit. When she's pressured to think of an answer on the spot, she almost falls into lying by instinct now.

      4)  And that's exactly what she does when Master Fu (who she's only met minutes earlier -- apart from the brief panic-stricken incident months ago, when she frantically sought help from him for the ailing Tikki, thinking that he was some kind of veterinarian) questions her as to where she got the book. She tries to protect Adrien as fiercely as she protects her own secret identity as Ladybug, until she can sort out all this new information she's been given in the last few minutes.

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    • I found the cut to Wayzz playing around on the Gramophone to be sweet, and foreshadows the next Turtle Miraculous holder in a really subtle way.

      However I'm disappointed we didn't get a clip of the Kwamis talking, I really want to see the Kwamis having a conversation or something - hopefully we'll get that further on in the season.

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    • Slabcity wrote:
      Someone may have already said this - but if this occured straight after Volpina, where is Lila? Did I miss her or something? I was hoping she would be a recurring character like Season 1 suggested.

      Don't forget that the fallout of being revealed as having lied to virtually everyone at school had a HUGE effect on Lila, and it's likely she can't just return to school after she's been akumatized (and then defeated), at least not right away. We don't know what her home situation is, but it seemed to me to be implied that her parents were wealthy, or at least well-off.

      Even though it seems like Ladybug's Lucky Charm restoring things to their original state prior to the villain's akumatization cause memories associated with that villain to fade from people's minds, in this case I don't think it applies to Lila's lies being revealed by Ladybug PRIOR to Lila's akumatization, so right now she's got a bad reputation and her classmates are likely to shun her to some extent, if not completely.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      Slabcity wrote:
      Someone may have already said this - but if this occured straight after Volpina, where is Lila? Did I miss her or something? I was hoping she would be a recurring character like Season 1 suggested.

      Don't forget that the fallout of being revealed as having lied to virtually everyone at school had a HUGE effect on Lila, and it's likely she can't just return to school after she's been akumatized (and then defeated), at least not right away. We don't know what her home situation is, but it seemed to me to be implied that her parents were wealthy, or at least well-off.

      Even though it seems like Ladybug's Lucky Charm restoring things to their original state prior to the villain's akumatization cause memories associated with that villain to fade from people's minds, in this case I don't think it applies to Lila's lies being revealed by Ladybug PRIOR to Lila's akumatization, so right now she's got a bad reputation and her classmates are likely to shun her to some extent, if not completely.

      Actually, the only people who know Lila lied about anything are Adrien and Marinette. Nobody else knew about Lika’s Superhero lie. So none of her lies were exposed. She may not have come back because Ladybug humiliated her in front of her crush. Which... I have many problems with her crush on Adrien. If I’m reading Lila right, she told all those lies just to get Adrien’s attention and make herself appealing to him. Before she even met him. Marinette at least waited to see he was a really nice guy before developing a crush on him. Lila seems very shallow unless she’s a forgotten childhood friend of Adrien’s, and if that’s true, she’s worse than Marinette to me. But no one has reason to shun her right now because no one knows she lied but Adrien and the person who knew she was a liar the whole time.

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    • Ok, this episode answers A LOT of questions we've all been speculating the answers to, but it also opens the door for so many NEW question to come along!! An example would be "So, if Natalie knows about Gabriel, does she then know about Adrien too? And if so, how did she come about the information." But theories are just part of the fun in beign a fan! (Oh, and I so called Gabriel beign Hawkmoth....Just like most other people)

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    • Thearomalady wrote:

      Actually, the only people who know Lila lied about anything are Adrien and Marinette. Nobody else knew about Lila’s Superhero lie. So none of her lies were exposed. She may not have come back because Ladybug humiliated her in front of her crush. Which... I have many problems with her crush on Adrien. If I’m reading Lila right, she told all those lies just to get Adrien’s attention and make herself appealing to him. Before she even met him. Marinette at least waited to see he was a really nice guy before developing a crush on him. Lila seems very shallow unless she’s a forgotten childhood friend of Adrien’s, and if that’s true, she’s worse than Marinette to me. But no one has reason to shun her right now because no one knows she lied but Adrien and the person who knew she was a liar the whole time.


      It seemed to me like Lila's instant status as a Popular Girl was all built around the lie that she was close friends with Ladybug, and she supported that one outrageous fib with a whole web of lesser lies. In one scene shown in the episode, the school's hallways are all abuzz with students, and Lila's name is on everyone's lips. Some of Lila's other lies include: telling Rose she knew Prince Ali personally and had flown on his private jet, telling Chloe that Jagged Stone wrote a song about her, telling Nino that she knew all the big Hollywood directors and promising that she'd mention his name to Steven Spielberg (or someone whose name sounds very close to that), and giving Alya an "exlusive interview" about the time Ladybug saved her life.

      I know Marinette apologized to Lila for the way she embarassed her, but... I still can't believe she and Adrien would let Lila's lie about being best pals with Ladybug go, and let people continue to believe it when it wasn't true. For one thing, Lila also deceived Alya, and Alya posted a story about her fabricated friendship on her Ladyblog. I have to believe that story was one of the crucial reasons that Lila's popularity spread so fast in the school. As Alya's best friend, do you think Marinette feels so contrite about the WAY she exposed Lila's lie, that she'd let her best friend continue to believe it, and continue to spread bogus information to the public through the Ladyblog? I guess it might be possible, but it just doesn't feel realistic to me. Marinette's generally kindhearted, but that seems a little extreme. And you know, even if she WAS that bighearted (and I don't really think she is, because in most respects she's a normal girl), I can't see Adrien letting it go. He doesn't have to make it into some kind of big thing, but a quiet sort of retraction on the Ladyblog, with Alya just stating flatly that the story was in error, and has been confirmed as untrue... THAT I can believe. And once people at school stop believing that, they're going to start questioning a lot of Lila's other lies, and wondering if they're not true, as well. Some of her other lies would eventually self-destruct anyway, as happens with most habitual liars.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      Thearomalady wrote:

      Actually, the only people who know Lila lied about anything are Adrien and Marinette. Nobody else knew about Lila’s Superhero lie. So none of her lies were exposed. She may not have come back because Ladybug humiliated her in front of her crush. Which... I have many problems with her crush on Adrien. If I’m reading Lila right, she told all those lies just to get Adrien’s attention and make herself appealing to him. Before she even met him. Marinette at least waited to see he was a really nice guy before developing a crush on him. Lila seems very shallow unless she’s a forgotten childhood friend of Adrien’s, and if that’s true, she’s worse than Marinette to me. But no one has reason to shun her right now because no one knows she lied but Adrien and the person who knew she was a liar the whole time.


      It seemed to me like Lila's instant status as a Popular Girl was all built around the lie that she was close friends with Ladybug, and she supported that one outrageous fib with a whole web of lesser lies. In one scene shown in the episode, the school's hallways are all abuzz with students, and Lila's name is on everyone's lips.

      I know Marinette apologized to Lila for the way she embarassed her, but... I still can't believe she and Adrien would let Lila's lie about being best pals with Ladybug go, and let people continue to believe it when it wasn't true. For one thing, Lila also deceived Alya, and Alya posted a story about her fabricated friendship on her Ladyblog. I have to believe that story was one of the crucial reasons that Lila's popularity spread so fast in the school. As Alya's best friend, do you think Marinette feels so contrite about the WAY she exposed Lila's lie, that she'd let her best friend continue to believe it, and continue to spread bogus information to the public through the Ladyblog? I guess it might be possible, but it just doesn't feel realistic to me. Marinette's generally kindhearted, but that seems a little extreme. And you know, even if she WAS that bighearted (and I don't really think she is, because in most respects she's a normal girl), I can't see Adrien letting it go. He doesn't have to make it into some kind of big thing, but a quiet sort of retraction on the Ladyblog, with Alya just stating flatly that the story was in error, and has been confirmed as untrue... THAT I can believe. And once people at school stop believing that, they're going to start questioning a lot of Lila's other lies, and wondering if they're not true, as well. Some of her other lies would eventually self-destruct anyway, as happens with most habitual liars.

      I dunno. The only person who saw her reject Lila like that was Adrien. Marinette can’t say anything about it without revealing her identity or lying. Adrien is the only real word against her and he might not say anything because he doesn’t like to slander people. We know Chloé and Alya stop buying it and Adrien get taken in by her lies again from some Season 2 information before the episodes came out. He bought her lie even though HE is the closest person to Ladybug, something he should know. He should have immediately known she was lying. He shouldn’t act nearly so interested in someone who knows Ladybug.

      Also people may not believe Marinette for whatever reason. If she’s the only one speaking out against Lila, people might just think she’s jealous of Lila’s fame and popularity. It’s no secret she hates Chloé more than everyone else does.

      It was a weird episode.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:

      I dunno. The only person who saw her reject Lila like that was Adrien. Marinette can’t say anything about it without revealing her identity or lying. Adrien is the only real word against her and he might not say anything because he doesn’t like to slander people. We know Chloé and Alya stop buying it and Adrien get taken in by her lies again from some Season 2 information before the episodes came out. He bought her lie even though HE is the closest person to Ladybug, something he should know. He should have immediately known she was lying. He shouldn’t act nearly so interested in someone who knows Ladybug.

      Also people may not believe Marinette for whatever reason. If she’s the only one speaking out against Lila, people might just think she’s jealous of Lila’s fame and popularity. It’s no secret she hates Chloé more than everyone else does.

      Sorry if I may have confused you by referring to her as "Marinette" in my post. Of COURSE Marinette can't say anything to anyone about Lila. How would she know? As far as anyone knows, Marinette has nothing to do with Lila. But Ladybug does sometimes go straight to Alya and give her interviews. She may feel in a forgiving mood because of how she treated Lila as Ladybug, but somehow I don't think she's just going to let the lie stand and shrug it off as not important. If for no other reason than that Alya's reputation as a responsible journalist is not to spread lies through the Ladyblog, regardless of whether it's a "fan site" or not -- I personally think Marinette's kind of proud of Alya for creating that site, and not because of her own vanity. You can laugh about it if you want when I call Alya a "journalist", but Alya takes that site very seriously. It's her life's work, and it seems likely to me that some form of journalism, reporting, webmastering, or writing is going to be Alya's career goal. I know she wouldn't want to find out that the things she posts on her site are completely fabricated and false, so if Ladybug doesn't put her straight, who's going to? Eventually it seems to me Alya will find out, but how will that damage the site's credibility when the truth finally comes out? It's better for the site if Ladybug helps her kill that story as soon as possible.

      You don't think Adrien's convinced that Lila's a liar? Even after Cat Noir witnessed Volpina threatening to murder "Adrien Agreste"? He IS the one that assures a panicked and paralyzed-with-fear Ladybug "Don't believe it! It's only an illusion!!" but she's not sure whether she's as convinced as he is.

      And no, Adrien does NOT know that Lila's lying about Ladybug. Why? He really knows nothing about her, and Ladybug isn't telling. It's all business with her, much to his dismay. Lila dangles a piece of info about being Ladybug's friend in front of him, and he thinks he might finally get some insight from this girl about what Ladybug's really like... that SHE might actually know things about Ladybug that he doesn't. If you didn't GET the fact that he's not interested in Lila, he's REALLY interested in learning everything he can about Ladybug from a "friend" who she may not be as defensive around and all-business, that might reveal another side of Ladybug through "just between us girls"... then you really don't KNOW Adrien at all. It seems to me that is just a common misapprehension that people have, is that they forget that the characters IN the show do not have the same omniscient viewpoint as the viewers of the show. Cat Noir/Adrien really does know NEXT to nothing about Ladybug. He can list the many things he likes about her, but all of the personal details of her life... he has no idea, and he's dying to know.

      THAT is Lila's whole Modus Operandi -- that's how she charms & fascinates everone and gets them to like her, or at least pretend to like her. Who do you want to know about... ? Prince Ali? "Rose, we are close personal friends. He took me for a flight on his private jet." Steven Spielberg? "Nino, honey... I know ALL the big Hollywood directors. If you'd like, I'd be happy to mention your name to Steven the next time I'm there..."  "Chloe, I see where your father had Jagged staying at the Hotel Bourgeois recently. Did you know he wrote that new hit track off his recent album especially for me? He always tells me I'm his muse."  "So Adrien, I hear you like Ladybug? It so happens that she and I are like THAT."

      It's not "slander" if you point out when a lie is a lie by telling the truth instead. Maybe you'd feel okay with it if you knew someone had deceived all your friends, and not point out to them the lies in order to save the liar some embarassment. It doesn't seem right somehow to me. It's a question of degree, and how it's done. Ladybug did it the wrong way, because her method didn't concentrate on upholding the truth over a falsehood, but focused on how badly she could humiliate Lila in the process -- she made her cry. Even then we can't be sure if those tears were genuine, or the acting skills of a practiced deceiver trying to play her final card, the sympathy card.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      Sorry if I may have confused you by referring to her as "Marinette" in my post. Of COURSE Marinette can't say anything to anyone about Lila. How would she know? As far as anyone knows, Marinette has nothing to do with Lila. But Ladybug does sometimes go straight to Alya and give her interviews. She may feel in a forgiving mood because of how she treated Lila as Ladybug, but somehow I don't think she's just going to let the lie stand and shrug it off as not important. If for no other reason than that Alya's reputation as a responsible journalist is not to spread lies through the Ladyblog, regardless of whether it's a "fan site" or not -- I personally think Marinette's kind of proud of Alya for creating that site, and not because of her own vanity. You can laugh about it if you want when I call Alya a "journalist", but Alya takes that site very seriously. It's her life's work, and it seems likely to me that some form of journalism, reporting, webmastering, or writing is going to be Alya's career goal. I know she wouldn't want to find out that the things she posts on her site are completely fabricated and false, so if Ladybug doesn't put her straight, who's going to? Eventually it seems to me Alya will find out, but how will that damage the site's credibility when the truth finally comes out? It's better for the site if Ladybug helps her kill that story as soon as possible.

      You don't think Adrien's convinced that Lila's a liar? Even after Cat Noir witnessed Volpina threatening to murder "Adrien Agreste"? He IS the one that assures a panicked and paralyzed-with-fear Ladybug "Don't believe it! It's only an illusion!!" but she's not sure whether she's as convinced as he is.

      And no, Adrien does NOT know that Lila's lying about Ladybug. Why? He really knows nothing about her, and Ladybug isn't telling. It's all business with her, much to his dismay. Lila dangles a piece of info about being Ladybug's friend in front of him, and he thinks he might finally get some insight from this girl about what Ladybug's really like... that SHE might actually know things about Ladybug that he doesn't. If you didn't GET the fact that he's not interested in Lila, he's REALLY interested in learning everything he can about Ladybug from a "friend" who she may not be as defensive around and all-business, that might reveal another side of Ladybug through "just between us girls"... then you really don't KNOW Adrien at all. It seems to me that is just a common misapprehension that people have, is that they forget that the characters IN the show do not have the same omniscient viewpoint as the viewers of the show. Cat Noir/Adrien really does know NEXT to nothing about Ladybug. He can list the many things he likes about her, but all of the personal details of her life... he has no idea, and he's dying to know.

      THAT is Lila's whole Modus Operandi -- that's how she charms & fascinates everone and gets them to like her, or at least pretend to like her. Who do you want to know about... ? Prince Ali? "Rose, we are close personal friends. He took me for a flight on his private jet." Steven Spielberg? "Nino, honey... I know ALL the big Hollywood directors. If you'd like, I'd be happy to mention your name to Steven the next time I'm there..."  "Chloe, I see where your father had Jagged staying at the Hotel Bourgeois recently. Did you know he wrote that new hit track off his recent album especially for me? He always tells me I'm his muse."  "So Adrien, I hear you like Ladybug? It so happens that she and I are like THAT."

      It's not "slander" if you point out when a lie is a lie by telling the truth instead. Maybe you'd feel okay with it if you knew someone had deceived all your friends, and not point out to them the lies in order to save the liar some embarassment. It doesn't seem right somehow to me. It's a question of degree, and how it's done. Ladybug did it the wrong way, because her method didn't concentrate on upholding the truth over a falsehood, but focused on how badly she could humiliate Lila in the process -- she made her cry. Even then we can't be sure if those tears were genuine, or the acting skills of a practiced deceiver trying to play her final card, the sympathy card.

      this whole episode is super weird and as often stated before, really OOC for all of them. 

      i do agree with you that adrien couldn't really have known that lila was lying. let's not forget that he was homeschooled before and is socially awkward. he is desperatly in love with ladybug and wants to know everything about her, so when a new girl claims to know her, of course he is going to seek for informations. it wouldn't cross his mind that lila could just lie so that he likes her, because he never been in that kind of situation before. however, he is a miraculous wielder himself, so to just beliefe that she has a miraculous as well is pretty naive. he knows himself that they should keep their identities and their miraculouses a secret, so i think at least here he should feel alarmed about the situation. but yeah, i'm eager to see how lila's story is going to continue. adrien is very polite, so i can see him pretending to believe her, but then again, he is really naive haha.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      Sorry if I may have confused you by referring to her as "Marinette" in my post. Of COURSE Marinette can't say anything to anyone about Lila. How would she know? As far as anyone knows, Marinette has nothing to do with Lila. But Ladybug does sometimes go straight to Alya and give her interviews. She may feel in a forgiving mood because of how she treated Lila as Ladybug, but somehow I don't think she's just going to let the lie stand and shrug it off as not important. If for no other reason than that Alya's reputation as a responsible journalist is not to spread lies through the Ladyblog, regardless of whether it's a "fan site" or not -- I personally think Marinette's kind of proud of Alya for creating that site, and not because of her own vanity. You can laugh about it if you want when I call Alya a "journalist", but Alya takes that site very seriously. It's her life's work, and it seems likely to me that some form of journalism, reporting, webmastering, or writing is going to be Alya's career goal. I know she wouldn't want to find out that the things she posts on her site are completely fabricated and false, so if Ladybug doesn't put her straight, who's going to? Eventually it seems to me Alya will find out, but how will that damage the site's credibility when the truth finally comes out? It's better for the site if Ladybug helps her kill that story as soon as possible.

      You don't think Adrien's convinced that Lila's a liar? Even after Cat Noir witnessed Volpina threatening to murder "Adrien Agreste"? He IS the one that assures a panicked and paralyzed-with-fear Ladybug "Don't believe it! It's only an illusion!!" but she's not sure whether she's as convinced as he is.

      And no, Adrien does NOT know that Lila's lying about Ladybug. Why? He really knows nothing about her, and Ladybug isn't telling. It's all business with her, much to his dismay. Lila dangles a piece of info about being Ladybug's friend in front of him, and he thinks he might finally get some insight from this girl about what Ladybug's really like... that SHE might actually know things about Ladybug that he doesn't. If you didn't GET the fact that he's not interested in Lila, he's REALLY interested in learning everything he can about Ladybug from a "friend" who she may not be as defensive around and all-business, that might reveal another side of Ladybug through "just between us girls"... then you really don't KNOW Adrien at all. It seems to me that is just a common misapprehension that people have, is that they forget that the characters IN the show do not have the same omniscient viewpoint as the viewers of the show. Cat Noir/Adrien really does know NEXT to nothing about Ladybug. He can list the many things he likes about her, but all of the personal details of her life... he has no idea, and he's dying to know.

      THAT is Lila's whole Modus Operandi -- that's how she charms & fascinates everone and gets them to like her, or at least pretend to like her. Who do you want to know about... ? Prince Ali? "Rose, we are close personal friends. He took me for a flight on his private jet." Steven Spielberg? "Nino, honey... I know ALL the big Hollywood directors. If you'd like, I'd be happy to mention your name to Steven the next time I'm there..."  "Chloe, I see where your father had Jagged staying at the Hotel Bourgeois recently. Did you know he wrote that new hit track off his recent album especially for me? He always tells me I'm his muse."  "So Adrien, I hear you like Ladybug? It so happens that she and I are like THAT."

      It's not "slander" if you point out when a lie is a lie by telling the truth instead. Maybe you'd feel okay with it if you knew someone had deceived all your friends, and not point out to them the lies in order to save the liar some embarassment. It doesn't seem right somehow to me. It's a question of degree, and how it's done. Ladybug did it the wrong way, because her method didn't concentrate on upholding the truth over a falsehood, but focused on how badly she could humiliate Lila in the process -- she made her cry. Even then we can't be sure if those tears were genuine, or the acting skills of a practiced deceiver trying to play her final card, the sympathy card.

      I wasn't confused, I just wasn't thinking about Ladybug doing something since I was on my lunch break and not thining too much about what you might mean. And I agree- Alya is a journalist. She is a reporter, and she cares a lot about the truth. I know Alya comes around to know the truth, because a Season 2 synopsis mentioned that Alya, Chloe, and Marinette will be teaming up against Lila's takeover of the school and of Adrien. But even if Alya knows, and posts it on her blog, there's a massive problem- Alya states that Lila's interview got more hits on her blog than Alya's interview with Ladybug herself did. She doesn't use those exact words, but she says her Ladyblog has never gotten as many hits as it did from the interview that was posted, at most, an hour and a half ago. This being after her interview with Ladybug. I refuse to accept that Lila is such a good liar she can affect the hit count on Alya's blog like that. If that's true, then people may not believe Alya's follow-up about Lila being a liar and not knowing Ladybug from Ladybug herself.

      Okay, maybe I should explain myself better. I'm not being an idiot, I perfectly understand what happened in "Volpina", but I'm going off of some actual information about Season 2.

      Lila is meant to return, and force Chloe, Marinette, and Alya to team up against her takeover of the school and the she somehow gets, or attempts to get, Adrien's attentions again. If you look on the Season 2 page itself, it's right there under TFOU's overview for the season.

      This is what I have been referring to. I thought everyone had heard about this because people won't stop talking about it. They wouldn't mention it if Lila didn't have a chance of being successful. So this means for whatever reason, Adrien is still fooled by Lila in some capacity. It does not help that Ladybug has been acting like a total jerk the entire episode, something he calls out twice. Anything that happened after she was akumatised Adrien will not hold against her. So the only lie he knows she told is that she knows Ladybug. And he knows from Ladybug that she lied about that because she has a crush on him.

      SImply put, Adrien will not think Lila is as much of a liar as Marinette does. He'll think she told a fib to get his attention. Based on his reaction in the library, he, by the end of the episode, hadn't yet seen her interview and may have thought she just lied to him about it, at least until he sees it.

      I misused the word "slander". I'm sorry for forgetting it's specifically about lying and not just saying something that could hurt someone. He won't talk badly about someone, he won't say things that will intentionally hurt someone. After seeing her be hurt by Ladybug and knowing she lied because she likes him, Adrien might not speak out against it because it's ultimately a harmless lie.

      Going back to Adrien/Cat Noir's relationship with Ladybug, all he has to do is pay attention to her. She's not subtle about who she really is. I've already voiced my opinion a few times that Adrien could know who Ladybug is because of how she apparently assumes they don't know each other in real life. Not once has she mentioned knowing someone named Lila, but boy howdy does she talk about everyone in their class a lot without restraint. He sees her address Alya by name when they meet, knowing it's her first day on the job. He sees that she knows Mylene well enough to know her special song, something she would have no way of knowing if she wasn't in the class or knew Mylene well. He also knows she knows who Ivan is despite it being only their second day on duty, and knows that Ivan is in love with Mylene. He can see she's exceptionally disgusted with Chloe. Watch the show again and tell me that around Cat Noir, she is not remotely subtle about who she knows to him. She indirectly tells him who her friends are, she shows a lot of knowledge she ought not to know (like about Mylene's song and that she's the akumtised victim, or about Chloe's bracelet, which Ladybug should know nothing about), he knows she's a klutz, he knows she's a romantic, he knows she's stubborn, he's seen her jealousy. Cat Noir knows her better than you think he does if he's actually been paying attention to her actions when near him. She doesn't need to tell him anything- she's practically an open book. The only way someone like Alya hasn't figured her out yet is because they're not with her during all her akuma fights. They don't see and hear everything he does. He obviously knows her well enough to read her signals.

      Based on how he acts to Marinette, I think he knows who Ladybug is. He's way more interested in her than anyone else in his class. Hawk Moth certainly seems to have an idea who she is.

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    • Lili's lies have a plasticity to them. They are interactive and constantly evolving. The Ladybug lie begins as a way for Lila to hitch her wagon to a star, a tell-all video "exclusive interview" posted to Alya's Ladyblog detailing her experience being rescued by Ladybug. Soon she adds to the story by mentioning that after LB saved her, they became friends. Then "good friends". Lila's radar is constantly probing the targets of her lies to determine what they want to hear and what interests them most. When she sees Adrien's interest in his book, she knows he's interested in superheroes, so she continues with the Ladybug story, and somehow she's moved from "rescued" to "friends" to "we're like THAT". Once she gets a look at Adrien's book, and notices the fortuitous resemblance of her pendant to the Fox Miraculous, she sees another way to make her story seem more plausible, so she tells him (just between us) that she's the descendant of the Fox Miraculous holder (of course she doesn't know what a Miraculous is, and doesn't use that word), Volpina. Now that she's obviously got Adrien's attention, she starts to twist the focus of her story from his interest in Ladybug, to his interest in the heroes in the book, and then coming to focus on herself as the descendant of one of those heroes in his book. She needs to turn it in her direction, since it's obvious that she has no real information about Ladybug to hold Adrien's attention, but now that she's got him mesmerized through noting his interest in the book, she can switch gears and concentrate on getting him interested in her. She explains that Volpina was a much more important hero in history than Ladybug ("Confidentially, Ladybug's not even in the top ten."). And so on... she's clearly been practicing her lies for a long time, and knows just how to pique the interest of her listeners.

      And while I know how defensive of Adrien she can get, even I was startled by how quickly the claws came out in Marinette, and how aggressively (and *nastily*) she launched into her little act to shame Lila. Adrien is shocked, too. "What was THAT all about? Wasn't that kind of HARSH?" He's never seen THIS side of Ladybug, and he doesn't much care for it (and I can't say I do, either). He makes many such comments later in the episode, as Cat Noir. "I don't know what's wrong. This isn't LIKE her at all." and even tells her to her face, but Ladybug is too angry to hear what he's saying.

      LB's behavior in that episode is SO over the top that she almost creates sympathy in me for Lila. Almost, but not quite.

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    • We know Hawk Moth can akumatize himself now. So why doesn't he do it more often? He has the perfect advantage to akumatize himself and become anyone he wants to defeat Ladybug and Cat Noir.

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    • Ladybug'sAndCatNoir'sSexyBodies1234 wrote:
      We know Hawk Moth can akumatize himself now. So why doesn't he do it more often? He has the perfect advantage to akumatize himself and become anyone he wants to defeat Ladybug and Cat Noir.

      Because too much misdirection can make you want to look at the thing you're being told isn't there. It's like when you tell someone "I definitely didn't eat the last of your Oreo ice cream cake" but you totally did. If he keeps drawing attention to Gabriel, they're going to get suspicious.

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    • Ladybug'sAndCatNoir'sSexyBodies1234 wrote:
      We know Hawk Moth can akumatize himself now. So why doesn't he do it more often? He has the perfect advantage to akumatize himself and become anyone he wants to defeat Ladybug and Cat Noir.

      The better question would be... why didn't he do it before? It's not a case of "Hawk Moth can akumatize himself NOW"... he could always do it. So what does he do with that ability? Wastes it in a one-time scheme to divert attention from himself, by making his akumatized identity easy to discover and not even trying that hard to beat the heroes -- because for him, the defeat was a necessary one for his purpose of diverting suspicion of himself being Hawk Moth.

      There is something about The Collector (the villain, not the episode) that just doesn't seem quite right. He just seemed too amped-up, manic, hyper, out-of-control. That might mean Gabriel himself is beginning to unravel, or that there's some side effect to himself in being akumatized.

      So, it would be useful for him to have a physical superpower, but it's only useful insofar as he can maintain his identity in complete secrecy. No one's going to believe that Hawk Moth is going to try recruiting Gabriel Agreste multiple times, and not believe there's a connection between them.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Positronic wrote:

      Sorry if I may have confused you by referring to her as "Marinette" in my post. Of COURSE Marinette can't say anything to anyone about Lila. How would she know? As far as anyone knows, Marinette has nothing to do with Lila. But Ladybug does sometimes go straight to Alya and give her interviews. She may feel in a forgiving mood because of how she treated Lila as Ladybug, but somehow I don't think she's just going to let the lie stand and shrug it off as not important. If for no other reason than that Alya's reputation as a responsible journalist is not to spread lies through the Ladyblog, regardless of whether it's a "fan site" or not -- I personally think Marinette's kind of proud of Alya for creating that site, and not because of her own vanity. You can laugh about it if you want when I call Alya a "journalist", but Alya takes that site very seriously. It's her life's work, and it seems likely to me that some form of journalism, reporting, webmastering, or writing is going to be Alya's career goal. I know she wouldn't want to find out that the things she posts on her site are completely fabricated and false, so if Ladybug doesn't put her straight, who's going to? Eventually it seems to me Alya will find out, but how will that damage the site's credibility when the truth finally comes out? It's better for the site if Ladybug helps her kill that story as soon as possible.

      You don't think Adrien's convinced that Lila's a liar? Even after Cat Noir witnessed Volpina threatening to murder "Adrien Agreste"? He IS the one that assures a panicked and paralyzed-with-fear Ladybug "Don't believe it! It's only an illusion!!" but she's not sure whether she's as convinced as he is.

      And no, Adrien does NOT know that Lila's lying about Ladybug. Why? He really knows nothing about her, and Ladybug isn't telling. It's all business with her, much to his dismay. Lila dangles a piece of info about being Ladybug's friend in front of him, and he thinks he might finally get some insight from this girl about what Ladybug's really like... that SHE might actually know things about Ladybug that he doesn't. If you didn't GET the fact that he's not interested in Lila, he's REALLY interested in learning everything he can about Ladybug from a "friend" who she may not be as defensive around and all-business, that might reveal another side of Ladybug through "just between us girls"... then you really don't KNOW Adrien at all. It seems to me that is just a common misapprehension that people have, is that they forget that the characters IN the show do not have the same omniscient viewpoint as the viewers of the show. Cat Noir/Adrien really does know NEXT to nothing about Ladybug. He can list the many things he likes about her, but all of the personal details of her life... he has no idea, and he's dying to know.

      THAT is Lila's whole Modus Operandi -- that's how she charms & fascinates everone and gets them to like her, or at least pretend to like her. Who do you want to know about... ? Prince Ali? "Rose, we are close personal friends. He took me for a flight on his private jet." Steven Spielberg? "Nino, honey... I know ALL the big Hollywood directors. If you'd like, I'd be happy to mention your name to Steven the next time I'm there..."  "Chloe, I see where your father had Jagged staying at the Hotel Bourgeois recently. Did you know he wrote that new hit track off his recent album especially for me? He always tells me I'm his muse."  "So Adrien, I hear you like Ladybug? It so happens that she and I are like THAT."

      It's not "slander" if you point out when a lie is a lie by telling the truth instead. Maybe you'd feel okay with it if you knew someone had deceived all your friends, and not point out to them the lies in order to save the liar some embarassment. It doesn't seem right somehow to me. It's a question of degree, and how it's done. Ladybug did it the wrong way, because her method didn't concentrate on upholding the truth over a falsehood, but focused on how badly she could humiliate Lila in the process -- she made her cry. Even then we can't be sure if those tears were genuine, or the acting skills of a practiced deceiver trying to play her final card, the sympathy card.

      I wasn't confused, I just wasn't thinking about Ladybug doing something since I was on my lunch break and not thining too much about what you might mean. And I agree- Alya is a journalist. She is a reporter, and she cares a lot about the truth. I know Alya comes around to know the truth, because a Season 2 synopsis mentioned that Alya, Chloe, and Marinette will be teaming up against Lila's takeover of the school and of Adrien. But even if Alya knows, and posts it on her blog, there's a massive problem- Alya states that Lila's interview got more hits on her blog than Alya's interview with Ladybug herself did. She doesn't use those exact words, but she says her Ladyblog has never gotten as many hits as it did from the interview that was posted, at most, an hour and a half ago. This being after her interview with Ladybug. I refuse to accept that Lila is such a good liar she can affect the hit count on Alya's blog like that. If that's true, then people may not believe Alya's follow-up about Lila being a liar and not knowing Ladybug from Ladybug herself.

      Okay, maybe I should explain myself better. I'm not being an idiot, I perfectly understand what happened in "Volpina", but I'm going off of some actual information about Season 2.

      Lila is meant to return, and force Chloe, Marinette, and Alya to team up against her takeover of the school and the she somehow gets, or attempts to get, Adrien's attentions again. If you look on the Season 2 page itself, it's right there under TFOU's overview for the season.

      This is what I have been referring to. I thought everyone had heard about this because people won't stop talking about it. They wouldn't mention it if Lila didn't have a chance of being successful. So this means for whatever reason, Adrien is still fooled by Lila in some capacity. It does not help that Ladybug has been acting like a total jerk the entire episode, something he calls out twice. Anything that happened after she was akumatised Adrien will not hold against her. So the only lie he knows she told is that she knows Ladybug. And he knows from Ladybug that she lied about that because she has a crush on him.

      SImply put, Adrien will not think Lila is as much of a liar as Marinette does. He'll think she told a fib to get his attention. Based on his reaction in the library, he, by the end of the episode, hadn't yet seen her interview and may have thought she just lied to him about it, at least until he sees it.

      I misused the word "slander". I'm sorry for forgetting it's specifically about lying and not just saying something that could hurt someone. He won't talk badly about someone, he won't say things that will intentionally hurt someone. After seeing her be hurt by Ladybug and knowing she lied because she likes him, Adrien might not speak out against it because it's ultimately a harmless lie.

      Going back to Adrien/Cat Noir's relationship with Ladybug, all he has to do is pay attention to her. She's not subtle about who she really is. I've already voiced my opinion a few times that Adrien could know who Ladybug is because of how she apparently assumes they don't know each other in real life. Not once has she mentioned knowing someone named Lila, but boy howdy does she talk about everyone in their class a lot without restraint. He sees her address Alya by name when they meet, knowing it's her first day on the job. He sees that she knows Mylene well enough to know her special song, something she would have no way of knowing if she wasn't in the class or knew Mylene well. He also knows she knows who Ivan is despite it being only their second day on duty, and knows that Ivan is in love with Mylene. He can see she's exceptionally disgusted with Chloe. Watch the show again and tell me that around Cat Noir, she is not remotely subtle about who she knows to him. She indirectly tells him who her friends are, she shows a lot of knowledge she ought not to know (like about Mylene's song and that she's the akumtised victim, or about Chloe's bracelet, which Ladybug should know nothing about), he knows she's a klutz, he knows she's a romantic, he knows she's stubborn, he's seen her jealousy. Cat Noir knows her better than you think he does if he's actually been paying attention to her actions when near him. She doesn't need to tell him anything- she's practically an open book. The only way someone like Alya hasn't figured her out yet is because they're not with her during all her akuma fights. They don't see and hear everything he does. He obviously knows her well enough to read her signals.

      Based on how he acts to Marinette, I think he knows who Ladybug is. He's way more interested in her than anyone else in his class. Hawk Moth certainly seems to have an idea who she is.

      There is a level to the show where I don't think you can depend on your objective observations as a viewer, because the show has its own bible of fictional conceits... i.e.  Don't question how A&M don't recognize each other in & out of costume, when they have the same hairstyle, hair and eye color --- when it's clear to a five year-old viewer in the real world. It's like the Superman/Clark Kent thing... a pair of glasses is going to fool someone? And yet, that is the fictional conceit that is built into the premise. There is a level where it's not serious and objective, it's "comic", That's just the way things work in THEIR world, so don't attempt to apply real-world logic to it.

      Yeah, Marinette is the world's worst liar. Nervous, unconvincing as hell. And yet every character on the show seems to buy it. So maybe the whole world knows except for A&M, and they're just humoring them. Or maybe it's just a "comic book thing"... like dressing up in a bat-inspired motif would give "superstitious, cowardly" criminals the heebie-jeebies. Yeah, right.

      So... Chloe teams up with Marinette, while Adrien teams up with Lila. Wow, can't wait. Who will be riding the motorcycle over the shark tank? And you thought "Volpina" was OOC?

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    • Positronic wrote:

      There is a level to the show where I don't think you can depend on your objective observations as a viewer, because the show has its own bible of fictional conceits... i.e.  Don't question how A&M don't recognize each other in & out of costume, when they have the same hairstyle, hair and eye color --- when it's clear to a five year-old viewer in the real world. It's like the Superman/Clark Kent thing... a pair of glasses is going to fool someone? And yet, that is the fictional conceit that is built into the premise. There is a level where it's not serious and objective, it's "comic", That's just the way things work in THEIR world, so don't attempt to apply real-world logic to it.

      Yeah, Marinette is the world's worst liar. Nervous, unconvincing as hell. And yet every character on the show seems to buy it. So maybe the whole world knows except for A&M, and they're just humoring them. Or maybe it's just a "comic book thing"... like dressing up in a bat-inspired motif would give "superstitious, cowardly" criminals the heebie-jeebies. Yeah, right.

      So... Chloe teams up with Marinette, while Adrien teams up with Lila. Wow, can't wait. Who will be riding the motorcycle over the shark tank? And you thought "Volpina" was OOC?

      If Alya can figure that Adrien looks like Cat Noir, I refuse to use that logic. Sorry.

      Quit with the scarasm- I'm telling you what it says and I never said Adrien teamed up with Lila. I'm guessing it's not a willing team-up between Chloe, Alya, and Marinette, but for once they all agree on something, and things will go back to normal once Lila is brought down a peg (or more likely, is no longer a threat with Adrien, knowing Chloe and Marinette)

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Ladybug'sAndCatNoir'sSexyBodies1234 wrote:
      We know Hawk Moth can akumatize himself now. So why doesn't he do it more often? He has the perfect advantage to akumatize himself and become anyone he wants to defeat Ladybug and Cat Noir.
      The better question would be... why didn't he do it before? It's not a case of "Hawk Moth can akumatize himself NOW"... he could always do it. So what does he do with that ability? Wastes it in a one-time scheme to divert attention from himself, by making his akumatized identity easy to discover and not even trying that hard to beat the heroes -- because for him, the defeat was a necessary one for his purpose of diverting suspicion of himself being Hawk Moth.

      There is something about The Collector (the villain, not the episode) that just doesn't seem quite right. He just seemed too amped-up, manic, hyper, out-of-control. That might mean Gabriel himself is beginning to unravel, or that there's some side effect to himself in being akumatized.

      So, it would be useful for him to have a physical superpower, but it's only useful insofar as he can maintain his identity in complete secrecy. No one's going to believe that Hawk Moth is going to try recruiting Gabriel Agreste multiple times, and not believe there's a connection between them.

      I wouldn't call covering his identity a "waste", but he didn't do a lot with it. That's the real waste to me. He didn't even really try that hard to get their Miraculouses.

      The man watches akumatised people constantly- I still stand by the argument he isn't unhinged, he's playing the part of an akumatised person. He's seen dozens of akumas by this point, most of them are pretty manic. Akumatised people are totally in control of their actions, but driven by their emotions. However if you're of sound mind and emotion when you're taken over, you can do what you want. This is shown with Evillustrator and the Collector. After he transforms into the Collector, he's still acting totally normal like we expect of Hawk Moth. He even premeditatedly tore apart his atelier (his tearing the room apart really makes no sense to me unless he's setting the room up). It's because his actions were so exaggerated yet calculated that makes me think he was just acting. He went after the staples of an akuma attack- the Louvre, the Tower, the Mayor, random citizens, the people near him.... He says his "plan is working", so I can't help but think he's totally aware of what he's doing.

      One thing (and I'm derailing a little here) I like is that we can finally, finally, finally put to rest the "a person can be akumatised while wearing their Miraculous" thing. This doesn't seem to be the case, because Gabriel has to remove Nooroo's Miraculous to be akumatised, and he wears such a large cravat over it and the Miraculous is apparently very tiny indeed.

      I think he can only use his being akumatised twice before it sets up red flags. 

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    • Thearomalady wrote:

      I wouldn't call covering his identity a "waste", but he didn't do a lot with it. That's the real waste to me. He didn't even really try that hard to get their Miraculouses.

      The man watches akumatised people constantly- I still stand by the argument he isn't unhinged, he's playing the part of an akumatised person. He's seen dozens of akumas by this point, most of them are pretty manic. Akumatised people are totally in control of their actions, but driven by their emotions. However if you're of sound mind and emotion when you're taken over, you can do what you want. This is shown with Evillustrator and the Collector. After he transforms into the Collector, he's still acting totally normal like we expect of Hawk Moth. He even premeditatedly tore apart his atelier (his tearing the room apart really makes no sense to me unless he's setting the room up). It's because his actions were so exaggerated yet calculated that makes me think he was just acting. He went after the staples of an akuma attack- the Louvre, the Tower, the Mayor, random citizens, the people near him.... He says his "plan is working", so I can't help but think he's totally aware of what he's doing.

      One thing (and I'm derailing a little here) I like is that we can finally, finally, finally put to rest the "a person can be akumatised while wearing their Miraculous" thing. This doesn't seem to be the case, because Gabriel has to remove Nooroo's Miraculous to be akumatised, and he wears such a large cravat over it and the Miraculous is apparently very tiny indeed.

      I think he can only use his being akumatised twice before it sets up red flags. 

      We're actually saying the same thing about how he wasted the opportunity. Defeat by LB&CN was always a possibility, and he knew he could use that to divert suspicion. But he doesn't start out with a serious Plan A, where he makes it hard for them to discover The Collector's identity, and he's using those powers in a serious attack to accomplish his primary goal -- that of obtaining LB&CN's Miraculous. If Plan A works, then there's no need for the backup Plan B. If Plan A fails, then he's defeated, his identity uncovered, and he's successfully diverted suspicion of Gabriel being Hawk Moth.

      You could be right about Gabriel "acting" a character role out, in that it ties into that first idea. As The Collector, he's not behaving like Hawk Moth with new powers under a new secret disguise, he's acting like Gabriel Agreste "acting" like a supervillain. And now that I think about it, this kind of hammy, OTT acting style is exactly like Gabriel's interpretation of "You are a butterfly!" in Simon Says. In "The Collector" his weird behavior is supposed to be his idea of the persona of a Gabriel Agreste akumatized by Hawk Moth, and presumably controlling/influencing/directing him remotely.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Positronic wrote:

      There is a level to the show where I don't think you can depend on your objective observations as a viewer, because the show has its own bible of fictional conceits... i.e.  Don't question how A&M don't recognize each other in & out of costume, when they have the same hairstyle, hair and eye color --- when it's clear to a five year-old viewer in the real world. It's like the Superman/Clark Kent thing... a pair of glasses is going to fool someone? And yet, that is the fictional conceit that is built into the premise. There is a level where it's not serious and objective, it's "comic", That's just the way things work in THEIR world, so don't attempt to apply real-world logic to it.

      Yeah, Marinette is the world's worst liar. Nervous, unconvincing as hell. And yet every character on the show seems to buy it. So maybe the whole world knows except for A&M, and they're just humoring them. Or maybe it's just a "comic book thing"... like dressing up in a bat-inspired motif would give "superstitious, cowardly" criminals the heebie-jeebies. Yeah, right.

      So... Chloe teams up with Marinette, while Adrien teams up with Lila. Wow, can't wait. Who will be riding the motorcycle over the shark tank? And you thought "Volpina" was OOC?

      If Alya can figure that Adrien looks like Cat Noir, I refuse to use that logic. Sorry.

      Quit with the scarasm- I'm telling you what it says and I never said Adrien teamed up with Lila. I'm guessing it's not a willing team-up between Chloe, Alya, and Marinette, but for once they all agree on something, and things will go back to normal once Lila is brought down a peg (or more likely, is no longer a threat with Adrien, knowing Chloe and Marinette)

      Sorry if I was a little short there. I was in a hurry and didn't have the time for a lengthier, more detailed response.

      But the sarcasm isn't directed at YOU. It's when you reduce the plot points to these skeleton things, it just all sounds so ridiculous. The first thing that pops into my mind is, "Is there a merchandising wave of new action figures they need to push?" So no, I'm not happy to hear about that on the face of it. Unless they lay a lot more groundwork and there's a serious effort to establish some credibility on the characterization level, beyond just "Oh, we just thought it sounded like a cool idea."

      But what I meant about not knowing if you can trust the objective observations of your senses is...

      Normally, if we were discussing a regular, adult prime-time show, there's no level of unreality "guesswork". What you can see that characters in the show can see, that's what is. There's no "fantasy/unreality" gray area to try to factor in. With MIRACULOUS there's a level where it's a cartoon reality, where certain unbelievable things are just givens. If I'm just trusting my own senses in watching the show and making a list of things Gabriel can see and hear, and Hawk Moth can see and hear, then I should be able to add those together, and get a list of things that Gabriel/Hawk Moth must know. And so on, for all of the other characters. Except that there are plenty of examples of evidence that it doesn't always work that way. MY observations tell me that nobody would ever believe Marinette's transparent attempts at lying, but characters in the show seem to believe her despite that. According to what I've seen in the show so far, Marinette/Ladybug should know Adrien is Cat Noir, and vice versa, and Gabriel/Hawk Moth should know both of their identities -- and they should know his. But they ACT like they don't. So are they just "acting", or do they really NOT know? Because the creators are making up their own rules for the show about what the characters IN the show will notice or won't, will find believable or won't, I can never really be sure that the "evidence" I see with my senses is the same evidence the character in the scene I'm watching can apprehend.

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    • A lot of people are saying that Hawkmoth knows that Adrien is CN, is that true?

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    • We don't know for sure.

      See Gabriel looked at Cat Noir's ring and examined it before Cat Noir ran away in Simon Says and when Gabriel and Adrien were hugging, Gabriel saw a ring and said "Have you always had this I don't remember it?" ( don't know for sure thats what he meant but I can't be bothered to look it up) and Adrien looked scared that his dad was about to find out he was Cat Noir but then he said "Is that the only thing you don't remember about me" and then Adrien gets into a strop and huff adn Gabriel leaves the room.

      So you could say Gabriel was on the verge of finding out.

      NOTE: I just realised you said "A lot of people are saying that Hawkmoth knows that Adrien is CN, is that true?" not "A lot of people are saying that Gabriel knows that Adrien is CN, is that true? so the answer is no Hawky does not no, well not that we know of obviously.

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    • Light, Dark And Harmony Risen To Unison wrote:
      We don't know for sure.

      See Gabriel looked at Cat Noir's ring and examined it before Cat Noir ran away in Simon Says and when Gabriel and Adrien were hugging, Gabriel saw a ring and said "Have you always had this I don't remember it?" ( don't know for sure thats what he meant but I can't be bothered to look it up) and Adrien looked scared that his dad was about to find out he was Cat Noir but then he said "Is that the only thing you don't remember about me" and then Adrien gets into a strop and huff adn Gabriel leaves the room.

      So you could say Gabriel was on the verge of finding out.

      NOTE: I just realised you said "A lot of people are saying that Hawkmoth knows that Adrien is CN, is that true?" not "A lot of people are saying that Gabriel knows that Adrien is CN, is that true? so the answer is no Hawky does not no**, well not that we know of obviously.

        • = I meant to say Know instead of No.
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    • Homophones these days.

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    • Light, Dark And Harmony Risen To Unison wrote:
      Light, Dark And Harmony Risen To Unison wrote:
      We don't know for sure.

      See Gabriel looked at Cat Noir's ring and examined it before Cat Noir ran away in Simon Says and when Gabriel and Adrien were hugging, Gabriel saw a ring and said "Have you always had this I don't remember it?" ( don't know for sure thats what he meant but I can't be bothered to look it up) and Adrien looked scared that his dad was about to find out he was Cat Noir but then he said "Is that the only thing you don't remember about me" and then Adrien gets into a strop and huff adn Gabriel leaves the room.

      So you could say Gabriel was on the verge of finding out.

      NOTE: I just realised you said "A lot of people are saying that Hawkmoth knows that Adrien is CN, is that true?" not "A lot of people are saying that Gabriel knows that Adrien is CN, is that true? so the answer is no Hawky does not no**, well not that we know of obviously.

        • = I meant to say Know instead of No.

      There are a lot of incidents like that in the episodes that seem to be purposely left ambiguous and open to interpretation. It gives the show's writers options to utilize in future episodes if they choose to do so.

      You might ask: Does it mean that Gabriel's momentary interest in Adrien's ring is forgotten by him when he's distracted by Adrien's moody reply, or does he remember this information and connect it with what he knows about Cat Noir's Miraculous, holding on to that knowledge to be utilized at some later time? In other words, he may not be sure, but he at least has his suspicions, about which he's saying nothing now. It could be one or the other, but we'll never know unless future episodes follow up on that incident.

      You could ask the same sort of questions about what Master Fu was thinking when he asked Marinette where she got the book, and she nervously lies, telling him that she found it just sitting there on a park bench. Master Fu doesn't object to this explanation, so maybe he accepts it as true.

      Or maybe not... maybe he's thinking something like "I don't know why Marinette would need to lie, but she's basically an honest girl, so I'll let it go for now. She must have her reasons, and perhaps she'll be ready to tell me where she really got the book, in her own time." That's the kind of thing that might crop up in some future episode, where a subsequent visit with Master Fu has him ask "So, Marinette... are you ready to tell me where you REALLY got the book?"

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    • Positronic wrote:

      Sorry if I was a little short there. I was in a hurry and didn't have the time for a lengthier, more detailed response.

      But the sarcasm isn't directed at YOU. It's when you reduce the plot points to these skeleton things, it just all sounds so ridiculous. The first thing that pops into my mind is, "Is there a merchandising wave of new action figures they need to push?" So no, I'm not happy to hear about that on the face of it. Unless they lay a lot more groundwork and there's a serious effort to establish some credibility on the characterization level, beyond just "Oh, we just thought it sounded like a cool idea."

      But what I meant about not knowing if you can trust the objective observations of your senses is...

      Normally, if we were discussing a regular, adult prime-time show, there's no level of unreality "guesswork". What you can see that characters in the show can see, that's what is. There's no "fantasy/unreality" gray area to try to factor in. With MIRACULOUS there's a level where it's a cartoon reality, where certain unbelievable things are just givens. If I'm just trusting my own senses in watching the show and making a list of things Gabriel can see and hear, and Hawk Moth can see and hear, then I should be able to add those together, and get a list of things that Gabriel/Hawk Moth must know. And so on, for all of the other characters. Except that there are plenty of examples of evidence that it doesn't always work that way. MY observations tell me that nobody would ever believe Marinette's transparent attempts at lying, but characters in the show seem to believe her despite that. According to what I've seen in the show so far, Marinette/Ladybug should know Adrien is Cat Noir, and vice versa, and Gabriel/Hawk Moth should know both of their identities -- and they should know his. But they ACT like they don't. So are they just "acting", or do they really NOT know? Because the creators are making up their own rules for the show about what the characters IN the show will notice or won't, will find believable or won't, I can never really be sure that the "evidence" I see with my senses is the same evidence the character in the scene I'm watching can apprehend.


      We've had the groundwork for Marinette getting along better with Chloe laid out for us in "Despair Bear", because Chloe helped out of her own will and her bragging seemed to be more in surprise that she was actually useful than actually thinking she's superior to Ladybug imo.

      Marinette doesn't know who Cat Noir is because she refuses to entertain the idea she knows Cat Noir outside the suit. He actually asks her "You know, we might actually know each other in real life?" and she scoffs at the idea. When she's faced with two comparisons of Adrien to Cat Noir, she waves them both off. She doesn't want to think of Adrien as Cat Noir, because I think she wants to keep her relationship with Cat Noir strictly business and if he's Adrien, that takes that away. that's probably why she also was more willing to accept Adrien could be Hawk Moth. She doesn't work with Hawk Moth and her relationship with him has gotten personal a few times when he targets her friends. Because she refuses to even consider they might know each other out of the suit, she doesn't bother to act like she doesn't know certain people or things. She tends to ignore or gloss over things that Cat Noir does that he can't help doing that point to his identity, like appearing where he couldn't be (in the hotel in "Kung Food", which she glosses over, in the school during "Horrificator", which she ignores, and "Darkblade" where Adrien shouldn't be there but Cat Noir was). Cat Noir is a lot more careful, except where his dad is concerned. The only clues she really has are his slipups around Gabriel, his feather allergy, and Alya pointing out Adrien kinda looks like Cat Noir. He treats everyone else like strangers and detransforms in order to keep his identity a secret. But even if I think she had a major clue to go on, she'd refuse to accept that he's Cat Noir. She'd have to see him transform to believe it, I think.

      Hawk Moth is a different story. He seems to spy on Ladybug and Cat Noir, but not always. He's possibly figured Adrien out because of the ring, although I don't believe he knows what the ring looks like uninhabited. So he just has the shape of it to go on, and he likely knows Cat Noir shares his son's feather allergy. I think Adrien not being around in that episode might have put the final nail in that coffin, though. With Ladybug, he doesn't have a whole lot to go on- he's only met Marinette twice, possibly thrice if she met him in person as a result of making that hat. He has many of the other hints that Cat Noir would have, but he also doesn't know enough about Marinette to have more than just a suspicion about her.

      Cat Noir I think knows who Ladybug is, or has his suspicions, because of how he treats Marinette (quite apart from the deluge of hints she unwittingly dropped in "Horrificator"). For most of Season 1, he rarely interacts with her. But come Season 2, he's actively approaching her. Before, he would have just asked if Marinette was okay when she bumped into him because he knows she's so clumsy (as in "Princess Fragrance"), but in "Despair Bear" he exuberently pulls her off for a slow dance and doesn't mind when Alya puts them in a way more romantic dancing situation than before. He walks past multiple classmates to ask her about her macaroons. He wants to try her macaroons, not anyone else in the class. After he gets hers, the end card shows him walking away from the table. He only wanted to try Marinette's baking. I think in any other episode in Season 1, Alya would have to suggest he try Marinette's baking. But he walks up and asks her directly. While he could be making an effort into their friendship, I can't help but feel you can also read it as "he knows or suspects she's Ladybug".

      Regarding everyone else, I think most people just don't really consider that Paris's superheroes really are just two ordinary teenagers, so they don't really consider too much that they could be teenagers they actually know. Alya never brings it up again after Marinette derides the idea that Adrien could be Cat Noir. It's possible she brushed it off, too, because "Lady Wifi" is a very early episode (Chloe puts the episode in September by saying that "Halloween isn't for another month").
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    • The only plausible explanation I can come up with for everyone acting as if they don't know is the Miraculous itself. It's magic. The powers they get come from magic. The transformation is magic. The disguise is magic. It's a glamor. It prevents people from seeing what is not meant to be seen or recognized, and allows people (and cameras, etc) to see (or record) only what is intended to be seen. It's not a real costume, it's an illusion. It won't come off because it's not meant to, and in a sense isn't really there -- it's not fabric or cloth the way we usually think of clothing, more like a second skin. The mask is just a design element and serves no practical purpose in hiding their identities. The glamor applies to the Miraculous user, not just the costume as it appears to people who see it, so they don't recognize their eyes, hair and other physical characteristics. Marinette never really understood the significance of what Tikki was trying to tell her when she said "NO ONE can ever know who Ladybug is." It is part & parcel of the deal, take it or leave it. If you get the powers, that's the way it works.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      The only plausible explanation I can come up with for everyone acting as if they don't know is the Miraculous itself. It's magic. The powers they get come from magic. The transformation is magic. The disguise is magic. It's a glamor. It prevents people from seeing what is not meant to be seen or recognized, and allows people (and cameras, etc) to see (or record) only what is intended to be seen. It's not a real costume, it's an illusion. It won't come off because it's not meant to, and in a sense isn't really there -- it's not fabric or cloth the way we usually think of clothing, more like a second skin. The mask is just a design element and serves no practical purpose in hiding their identities. The glamor applies to the Miraculous user, not just the costume as it appears to people who see it, so they don't recognize their eyes, hair and other physical characteristics. Marinette never really understood the significance of what Tikki was trying to tell her when she said "NO ONE can ever know who Ladybug is." It is part & parcel of the deal, take it or leave it. If you get the powers, that's the way it works.

      That argument doesn't work though. Alya can see that Adrien looks like Cat Noir, and there' multiple instances of Tikki being terrified of someone figuring out who Ladybug is. If that can happen, then the magic of the suits only goes so far. It can't prevent people from finding out. It doesn't make it impossible for people to learn who they are, it just makes it harder. Also what Marinette actually says is: "Our identities must remain secret" in Origins, and "Nobody must know who we really are. Not even us". Both times she uses the word "must". Plagg also uses the word "must"- "Your father must never know that I exist! Or anyone for that matter" and Tikki uses it as well: "I'm your friend, Marinette! You must trust me. You're the only one who can stop Stoneheart!" and she uses it twice to tell Marinette that she "must" capture the akuma. It's very interesting that they chose to use the word "must". Must is a lot more compelling than "can". I mean, replace all of those "must" with "can" and the meaning changes. Must implies that while it's possible, letting it happen would be a very bad thing. It's semantics but still. Plagg's use of it in his line is relevant because it's out of line with how he normally talks, but Marinette and Tikki's repeated usage of it for the same lines also makes theirs relevant. It's an interesting word choice. It's also implied if you look at Queen Bee's page that she announces to Paris who she is.

      So it's not that people CAN'T know because of the magic of the suits or whatever, it's that they MUSTN'T know and that it's up to the heroes to keep their identities secret. And really, based on what we've seen, this only applies to Ladybug. It's a self-imposed rule where she must not know who the other heroes are and they must not know who she is.

      The magic of the suits does alter their appearances slightly- Marinette's hair and eyes change to slightly different colours and her mask obscures her freckles. Cat Noir is actually taller than Adrien is, being tanner with messier hair and obviously very different eyes. Hawk Moth is a lot taller than Gabriel is according to the infamous height chart and his facial structure changes a lot as Hawk Moth. The suits alter how they look, from slightly to dramatically. I can completely understand how they don't know who Cat Noir is- he looks very different and he acts very different. I often can't picture Adrien doing the things Cat Noir does.

      Marinette is the only real point in the favour of the suits having a magic that prevents people from knowing because she's so unsubtle about it, but it might be her personality change and the fact that the public doesn't know how her power works that makes people brush her off. Marinette is awkward, quiet, spacey, and clumsy, but Ladybug is competent, graceful (mostly), confident, and outspoken. Marinette has her moments where she calls Chloe out, but they're rare. It's possible people think Ladybug's powers come with some level of omnipotence, because she's such a fast thinker and seems to know a lot of things she shouldn't or can't know. I mean, nobody aside from Ladybug and Cat Noir know how their powers work. They just know what they see, so it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that the public thinks Ladybug's powers can tell her things that will help her be Ladybug, like who the akuma is, where the akuma is hiding (the fact that she messes up in "Antibug" is so stupid to me because it's obviously just for plot purposes, since she's never messed up before), the names of civilians, and things like that. People don't usually question how she knows things, but Cat Noir would know her power doesn't work like that so he and Hawk Moth could figure out she knows things she shouldn't, but normal people wouldn't know that.

      I think, also, it's just hard for people to even think that two perfectly ordinary teenagers they know could possibly be superheroes, no matter how much they look like them. Even if Ladybug and Cat Noir showed up to a Halloween party as themselves, people wouldn't see them and think they're Marinette and Adrien because they carry themselves so differently when transformed. It's not about the magic of the suits, it's just a combination of personality, inability to even consider they might share a classroom with a superhero, and not knowing how their powers work exactly.

      That's just how I see it based on the evidence we have. I think if Alya can identify similarities between Cat Noir and Adrien, then the masks/suits/magic can't prevent people from being able to figure it out.

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    • Well, that episode certainly screwed the "twin brother" theory over...

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Positronic wrote:
      The only plausible explanation I can come up with for everyone acting as if they don't know is the Miraculous itself. It's magic. The powers they get come from magic. The transformation is magic. The disguise is magic. It's a glamor. It prevents people from seeing what is not meant to be seen or recognized, and allows people (and cameras, etc) to see (or record) only what is intended to be seen. It's not a real costume, it's an illusion. It won't come off because it's not meant to, and in a sense isn't really there -- it's not fabric or cloth the way we usually think of clothing, more like a second skin. The mask is just a design element and serves no practical purpose in hiding their identities. The glamor applies to the Miraculous user, not just the costume as it appears to people who see it, so they don't recognize their eyes, hair and other physical characteristics. Marinette never really understood the significance of what Tikki was trying to tell her when she said "NO ONE can ever know who Ladybug is." It is part & parcel of the deal, take it or leave it. If you get the powers, that's the way it works.
      That argument doesn't work though. Alya can see that Adrien looks like Cat Noir, and there' multiple instances of Tikki being terrified of someone figuring out who Ladybug is. If that can happen, then the magic of the suits only goes so far. It can't prevent people from finding out. It doesn't make it impossible for people to learn who they are, it just makes it harder. Also what Marinette actually says is: "Our identities must remain secret" in Origins, and "Nobody must know who we really are. Not even us". Both times she uses the word "must". Plagg also uses the word "must"- "Your father must never know that I exist! Or anyone for that matter" and Tikki uses it as well: "I'm your friend, Marinette! You must trust me. You're the only one who can stop Stoneheart!" and she uses it twice to tell Marinette that she "must" capture the akuma. It's very interesting that they chose to use the word "must". Must is a lot more compelling than "can". I mean, replace all of those "must" with "can" and the meaning changes. Must implies that while it's possible, letting it happen would be a very bad thing. It's semantics but still. Plagg's use of it in his line is relevant because it's out of line with how he normally talks, but Marinette and Tikki's repeated usage of it for the same lines also makes theirs relevant. It's an interesting word choice. It's also implied if you look at Queen Bee's page that she announces to Paris who she is.

      So it's not that people CAN'T know because of the magic of the suits or whatever, it's that they MUSTN'T know and that it's up to the heroes to keep their identities secret. And really, based on what we've seen, this only applies to Ladybug. It's a self-imposed rule where she must not know who the other heroes are and they must not know who she is.

      The magic of the suits does alter their appearances slightly- Marinette's hair and eyes change to slightly different colours and her mask obscures her freckles. Cat Noir is actually taller than Adrien is, being tanner with messier hair and obviously very different eyes. Hawk Moth is a lot taller than Gabriel is according to the infamous height chart and his facial structure changes a lot as Hawk Moth. The suits alter how they look, from slightly to dramatically. I can completely understand how they don't know who Cat Noir is- he looks very different and he acts very different. I often can't picture Adrien doing the things Cat Noir does.

      Marinette is the only real point in the favour of the suits having a magic that prevents people from knowing because she's so unsubtle about it, but it might be her personality change and the fact that the public doesn't know how her power works that makes people brush her off. Marinette is awkward, quiet, spacey, and clumsy, but Ladybug is competent, graceful (mostly), confident, and outspoken. Marinette has her moments where she calls Chloe out, but they're rare. It's possible people think Ladybug's powers come with some level of omnipotence, because she's such a fast thinker and seems to know a lot of things she shouldn't or can't know. I mean, nobody aside from Ladybug and Cat Noir know how their powers work. They just know what they see, so it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that the public thinks Ladybug's powers can tell her things that will help her be Ladybug, like who the akuma is, where the akuma is hiding (the fact that she messes up in "Antibug" is so stupid to me because it's obviously just for plot purposes, since she's never messed up before), the names of civilians, and things like that. People don't usually question how she knows things, but Cat Noir would know her power doesn't work like that so he and Hawk Moth could figure out she knows things she shouldn't, but normal people wouldn't know that.

      I think, also, it's just hard for people to even think that two perfectly ordinary teenagers they know could possibly be superheroes, no matter how much they look like them. Even if Ladybug and Cat Noir showed up to a Halloween party as themselves, people wouldn't see them and think they're Marinette and Adrien because they carry themselves so differently when transformed. It's not about the magic of the suits, it's just a combination of personality, inability to even consider they might share a classroom with a superhero, and not knowing how their powers work exactly.

      That's just how I see it based on the evidence we have. I think if Alya can identify similarities between Cat Noir and Adrien, then the masks/suits/magic can't prevent people from being able to figure it out.


      I agree with your point. I do not believe that Ladybugs mistake in Antibug was simply plot convenience. Marinette is a hypocrite about lying whenever it is inconvenient for her; Chloe is the cause of most of these inconveniences, so Marinette chose not to listen to her when she suggested the correct location of the akuma. The message, at least I believe, was this: do not let emotion block out reason. Regardless of what feelings you contain, consider each possibility, it is okay to recieve help from others. Its a mistake made by both Marinette and Chloe, and they do it multiple times throughout the series. I find it in character for her to be basically ignoring most of what Chloe says or does, she even ditches Chat Noir when they are defending her from Evillustrator; implying to Chat Noir she does not care about defending Chloe. Sure she eventually got on the right track, but it is concerning she was willing to leave Chloe to fend for herself against the threat of the Evillustrator. It is important for Marinette to understand that despite her animosity towards Chloe, she needs to put some weight to Chloe as a person; perhaps not as Marinette, but as Ladybug.

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    • Yes, All of her big mistakes come from just acting on her feelings without stopping to consider the consequences. She has good intentions, but never questions her own motives. Is she doing the right thing for the right reason? Clearly she isn't always. Gabriel is motivated by love of his wife. You need more than good intentions guiding your actions when you hold a miraculous. The mistakes you make may compound themselves over time, and your feelings can lead you in the wrong direction.

      I'd like to see Marinette not repeating her errors, but hesitating when she remembers making a similar mistake in the past. Not saying they have to point it out by referring to the past mistake she made that was similar, it could be a lot more subtle than that. It's hard to think of any specific examples proving that she learned any lessons at all, beyond her first experience when she failed to capture Stoneheart's akuma and de-evilize it, and was later corrected by Tikki. That was just a mistake she made because she didn't know all the facts yet. I'm trying to think of a situation where she did something differently than she'd done in a past episode because it was clear she recognized a pitfall that she'd previously fallen into. Speaking of which, she could sure take more advantage of Tikki's advice on things -- or maybe get Master Fu's advice on a situation. In situations where she doesn't recognize her mistakes, Tikki should point them out to her when she gets the chance -- although it's not really clear if Tikki has any awareness of events transpiring while she's part of Marinette's miraculous.

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    • Yugioh z wrote:

      I agree with your point. I do not believe that Ladybugs mistake in Antibug was simply plot convenience. Marinette is a hypocrite about lying whenever it is inconvenient for her; Chloe is the cause of most of these inconveniences, so Marinette chose not to listen to her when she suggested the correct location of the akuma. The message, at least I believe, was this: do not let emotion block out reason. Regardless of what feelings you contain, consider each possibility, it is okay to recieve help from others. Its a mistake made by both Marinette and Chloe, and they do it multiple times throughout the series. I find it in character for her to be basically ignoring most of what Chloe says or does, she even ditches Chat Noir when they are defending her from Evillustrator; implying to Chat Noir she does not care about defending Chloe. Sure she eventually got on the right track, but it is concerning she was willing to leave Chloe to fend for herself against the threat of the Evillustrator. It is important for Marinette to understand that despite her animosity towards Chloe, she needs to put some weight to Chloe as a person; perhaps not as Marinette, but as Ladybug.

      But she's never made that mistake before or since- they had her make the mistake to teach her a lesson it was never once implied she needed to learn, and the lesson doesn't even work because she's always trusted Cat Noir's judgement in the past (I'll get to this in a minute), so her trusting his judgement the second time with where the akuma is made no sense for a moral. Ladybug/Marinette does need to learn to keep a lid on her emotions and not let them cloud her judgement. But I don't think it was handled well in "Antibug". They could have done it with something other than where the akuma is. That's what feels wrong to me. I don't feel the episode was handled well. It would have made so much more sense if what had happened was she refused to listen to Chloe about where Vanisher was and Marinette missed with her Lucky Charm because she chose not to trust Chloe, meaning she had to try again, and then someone other than Chloe got akumatised, and she opted to trust Chloe's judgement the second time when she said, say, there was a pattern to the akuma's movements, and she should throw her yo-yo in that direction to stop the akuma, not where she was planning to throw it. Because those are places where Ladybug actually has or could made mistakes and it wouldn't feel like a complete cop-out. Her being unable to see Vanisher would make it understandable why she'd miss when she's never missed with her Lucky Charm before, and she's misthrown her yo-yo on a number of occasions. Plus, if an akuma is moving around a lot, it's understandable that she'd make an error of where it is, and she'd be getting frustrated on top of not wanting to take Chloe's advice. It'd work way better than what they went with. An invisible villain and a fast villain. Chloe could have gotten her own episode where she gets akumatised into Antibug because Ladybug is a jerk to her (per normal) after an unseen akuma fight, partially out of impatience because she's about to transform back, and partially out of her dislike of Chloe.

      But her making a mistake where the akuma is hiding is completely unbelievable to me when she and/or Cat Noir has always, always known where it is and never thought something else was the item. And when she's always trusted Cat Noir's judgement. Speaking of, the only other time she ever would have gotten where the akuma is hiding wrong was in "Copycat" when she was told the akuma was in the ring by Copycat pretening to be Cat Noir. She was trusting "Cat Noir"'s judgement on where it was, not her own and refusing to listen to anyone else's suggetions. So I would argue that yes, her making a mistake with where the akuma hides was little more than a plot convenience, when they could have had her mistake be with something else more believable.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Yugioh z wrote:

      I agree with your point. I do not believe that Ladybugs mistake in Antibug was simply plot convenience. Marinette is a hypocrite about lying whenever it is inconvenient for her; Chloe is the cause of most of these inconveniences, so Marinette chose not to listen to her when she suggested the correct location of the akuma. The message, at least I believe, was this: do not let emotion block out reason. Regardless of what feelings you contain, consider each possibility, it is okay to recieve help from others. Its a mistake made by both Marinette and Chloe, and they do it multiple times throughout the series. I find it in character for her to be basically ignoring most of what Chloe says or does, she even ditches Chat Noir when they are defending her from Evillustrator; implying to Chat Noir she does not care about defending Chloe. Sure she eventually got on the right track, but it is concerning she was willing to leave Chloe to fend for herself against the threat of the Evillustrator. It is important for Marinette to understand that despite her animosity towards Chloe, she needs to put some weight to Chloe as a person; perhaps not as Marinette, but as Ladybug.

      But she's never made that mistake before or since- they had her make the mistake to teach her a lesson it was never once implied she needed to learn, and the lesson doesn't even work because she's always trusted Cat Noir's judgement in the past (I'll get to this in a minute), so her trusting his judgement the second time with where the akuma is made no sense for a moral.

      She does make a similar mistake, although the situation is a different one, but her flaw is the same -- she's convinced she's right, so she doesn't need to listen to anyone telling her what to do. She's so sure of herself that a Santa Claus is a villain bent on harming Adrien that she won't even listen to Adrien when he protests she's making a mistake. Chloe tried to tell her she's making a mistake, but she won't listen to her either. While she obviously likes Adrien, and in a calmer situation might listen to what he's trying to tell her, the real problem is that Marinette can't admit she might be wrong about something, and listen to someone with a dissenting opinion on the matter. Another similar occasion is when she ambushed Lila and put her down in no uncertain terms. Again, Adrien voices a protest about her extreme behavior, but she won't listen. "I won't put up with lies! Especially when they're about me." In all of these incidents, if Ladybug had stopped to consider the validity of someone else's opinion, she could have avoided major problems, but in each situation, she's carried away by her own sense of righteousness -- Chloe's an idiot. What does she know about this superhero stuff? Adrien doesn't recognize the danger here -- I'm the superhero, I know a villain when I see one. Stay away from MY guy, you lying tramp -- you can't use MY reputation to get near him. As far as I'm concerned, she deserves worse than that, Adrien.

      Even more troubling is the hint that Marinette's beginning to display some sense of entitlement because of her role as Ladybug, an attitude of "I know better because I'm a superhero." It's interesting to look at how both she and Cat Noir have changed since they first got their powers in Origins. In that story, Cat Noir appeared to be the one who was overconfident and impulsive. Now it seems like those positions have swapped, and Cat Noir, on average, has balanced his two personas better and is capable of sound judgment more often, of thinking things through before acting. It's interesting to listen to his internal monologue in the Secrets webisode, where Adrien struggles to find exactly the right words to put into his Valentines' poem to Ladybug. He stop and thinks, writes and scratches out things he's written. "No, I better not say anything like that. She doesn't like it when I joke and make puns." But he does stop and think in a lot of the episodes, like when he's trapped by Copycat, and needs to tip Ladybug off as to who's the real Cat Noir. He still does make mistakes on occasion, like when he's interrrupted by Nathalie after taking the book from his father's hiding place behind the painting of his mother. He needs to hurry or he'll be late to school, so he doesn't debate over the consequences of not putting it back. Actually, he does debate over even looking after he finds a locked safe, but Plagg makes the decision for him by phasing through it and grabbing the book. You can argue that he makes a mistake by not calling Ladybug for help in taking down Copycat in the first place, but he does so because he feels a sense of responsibility for cleaning up his own messes, when he realizes that HE's responsible for Theo being akumatized.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Gabriel is motivated by love of his wife.

      Actually, we do not know his motives. That's just speculation.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      She does make a similar mistake, although the situation is a different one, but her flaw is the same -- she's convinced she's right, so she doesn't need to listen to anyone telling her what to do. She's so sure of herself that a Santa Claus is a villain bent on harming Adrien that she won't even listen to Adrien when he protests she's making a mistake. Chloe tried to tell her she's making a mistake, but she won't listen to her either. While she obviously likes Adrien, and in a calmer situation might listen to what he's trying to tell her, the real problem is that Marinette can't admit she might be wrong about something, and listen to someone with a dissenting opinion on the matter. Another similar occasion is when she ambushed Lila and put her down in no uncertain terms. Again, Adrien voices a protest about her extreme behavior, but she won't listen. "I won't put up with lies! Especially when they're about me." In all of these incidents, if Ladybug had stopped to consider the validity of someone else's opinion, she could have avoided major problems, but in each situation, she's carried away by her own sense of righteousness -- Chloe's an idiot. What does she know about this superhero stuff? Adrien doesn't recognize the danger here -- I'm the superhero, I know a villain when I see one. Stay away from MY guy, you lying tramp -- you can't use MY reputation to get near him. As far as I'm concerned, she deserves worse than that, Adrien.

      Even more troubling is the hint that Marinette's beginning to display some sense of entitlement because of her role as Ladybug, an attitude of "I know better because I'm a superhero." It's interesting to look at how both she and Cat Noir have changed since they first got their powers in Origins. In that story, Cat Noir appeared to be the one who was overconfident and impulsive. Now it seems like those positions have swapped, and Cat Noir, on average, has balanced his two personas better and is capable of sound judgment more often, of thinking things through before acting. It's interesting to listen to his internal monologue in the Secrets webisode, where Adrien struggles to find exactly the right words to put into his Valentines' poem to Ladybug. He stop and thinks, writes and scratches out things he's written. "No, I better not say anything like that. She doesn't like it when I joke and make puns." But he does stop and think in a lot of the episodes, like when he's trapped by Copycat, and needs to tip Ladybug off as to who's the real Cat Noir. He still does make mistakes on occasion, like when he's interrrupted by Nathalie after taking the book from his father's hiding place behind the painting of his mother. He needs to hurry or he'll be late to school, so he doesn't debate over the consequences of not putting it back. Actually, he does debate over even looking after he finds a locked safe, but Plagg makes the decision for him by phasing through it and grabbing the book. You can argue that he makes a mistake by not calling Ladybug for help in taking down Copycat in the first place, but he does so because he feels a sense of responsibility for cleaning up his own messes, when he realizes that HE's responsible for Theo being akumatized.

      Please re-read everything I wrote. I specifically say the mistake I have an issue with, the one she has never made, is where the akuma is hiding. That is the mistake I feel is unrealistic. I', also perfectly aware Marinette/Ladybug needs to control her emotions better and not let it could her judgement. Almost immediately after where it seems you stopped reading, I said:

      Ladybug/Marinette does need to learn to keep a lid on her emotions and not let them cloud her judgement. But I don't think it was handled well in "Antibug". They could have done it with something other than where the akuma is.

      What happened in "Volpina" is completely irrelevant. That episode only means she didn't learn a lesson. That is the very last episode chronologically of the first season. You won't hear any complaints from me that Marinette has a sense of entitlement as both Ladybug and a leader, Nor will you hear me complain that Cat Noir is of sounder judgment.

      She also actually does listen to Cat Noir. Adrien, not so much as Ladybug, but Cat Noir? Yes, she actually does listen to him for the most part, to the point that her ignoring him in "Antibug" is almost as irritating to me as her making a mistake she has never made in the past.

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    • Please re-read everything I wrote. I specifically say the mistake I have an issue with, the one she has never made, is where the akuma is hiding. That is the mistake I feel is unrealistic. I', also perfectly aware Marinette/Ladybug needs to control her emotions better and not let it could her judgement. Almost immediately after where it seems you stopped reading, I said:


      Ladybug/Marinette does need to learn to keep a lid on her emotions and not let them cloud her judgement. But I don't think it was handled well in "Antibug". They could have done it with something other than where the akuma is.

      What happened in "Volpina" is completely irrelevant. That episode only means she didn't learn a lesson. That is the very last episode chronologically of the first season. You won't hear any complaints from me that Marinette has a sense of entitlement as both Ladybug and a leader, Nor will you hear me complain that Cat Noir is of sounder judgment.

      She also actually does listen to Cat Noir. Adrien, not so much as Ladybug, but Cat Noir? Yes, she actually does listen to him for the most part, to the point that her ignoring him in "Antibug" is almost as irritating to me as her making a mistake she has never made in the past.

      Okay, I think I'm done here. I wasn't sure if it was the way I was wording my posts at first, but there seems to be an issue here where you feel as though everything I write is a personal challenge to YOU. You seem to be concerned with "winning" so I concede. You win. I'm not here to engage in a contest of verbal jousting. If you can't keep from getting personal, then don't bother responding.

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    • After seeing Marinette's fantasy of Adrien dressed as Hawk Moth, I actually want to see an episode where it's an alternate timeline with Adrien being Hawk Moth with that design and being a awesome, hansome and creppy maniac alongside Chloé as Le Paon or Peacock. Can someone do a fanfic of that please? Then send me the link, please. I would totally read that.

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    • I'd rather see Miracuous remain more grounded and avoid any of the alternate timeline, dark future, parallel dimension, multiversal-type comic book tropes,,, as far as the actual show goes.

      Of course, anything's fair game for fanfic, so if that's anyone's thing, knock yourself out.

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    • I noticed Plagg said something a little... odd?

      He talks about maturing "El Plaggo" (some cheese) for 999 days. Which, I won't pretend that I'm any good at maths, but assuming I did add correctly, that's 2 years and 249 days. Which is like, 2 years, 8 months, and 4 days (ish, that number changes a little depending on what months you're working with, but that's from going back from December to May. Since I think "Volpina" takes place on 26 June based on the rest of the episodes placement, that number shifts to 2 years, 8 months, and 11 days because of having more months that have 30 days and including the 28 days long February.

      Anyway, whatever, the point is, how does Plagg know how long this cheese has been maturing unless he matured it himself?

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    • I knew there was at least two years in season one

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    • Alexiel Lucifen wrote:
      I knew there was at least two years in season one

      I never thought two years would make any sense, because they never have a summer break or anything like that- Stormy Weather happens on the Summer Equinox, according to Marinette's schedule of Adrien's in "Copycat". Plus, that means there were even less akuma attacks in a year, and Season 2 seems to be in the same year as Season 1.

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    • there are a few things that prove that there are two years, i have a chart Stormy Weather take place on the first day of summer vacation yet Volpina they are still in school whil still taking place after. Also Volpina take place one year after The Pharaoh, both one May 21st.

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    • I bet Nathalie will be le paon, their somewhat similar an as she is some kind of helper for hawk moth he will give her the peacook miraculous and she will help him get the miraculous

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    • Alexiel Lucifen wrote:
      there are a few things that prove that there are two years, i have a chart Stormy Weather take place on the first day of summer vacation yet Volpina they are still in school whil still taking place after. Also Volpina take place one year after The Pharaoh, both one May 21st.

      Hm... I'm afraid I must object to your assessment of the timeline. "Volpina" could not happen on 21 May of any recent year. Adrien's fencing classes are on Fridays. 21 May is on Wednesday in 2014, Thursday in 2015, Saturday in 2016 because of the leap year, and was a Sunday this year. The nearest years 21 May is on Friday are 2010 and 2021.

      (omitted timeline I did cuz it made my comment too long and was ultiamtely irrelevant)

      I find it hard to believe we'd have summer go by without Marinette bemoaning how she won't see Adrien anymore and freaking out about not being in the same class the next year, about him maybe going abroad for his job and finding a super-gorgeous and nice model girlfriend he'll marry and so on and such. I mean... c'mon. There's no way she wouldn't freak out like that.

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    • Lordedosventos wrote:
      I bet Nathalie will be le paon, their somewhat similar an as she is some kind of helper for hawk moth he will give her the peacook miraculous and she will help him get the miraculous

      That can't work- Le Paon is Hawk Moth's "boss", not his helper. If it's Nathalie, she has to steal it to become his boss and possibly be the person who scares him, but he'd most likely know it was her because she's a woman who knows about the Miraculouses and the Peacock Miraculous and knows where it's kept and possibly has access to the safe (she seems to have access to the lair, as well). Nathalie would be the one Gabriel would automatically suspect, I think, unless he has proof it can't be her. I feel like "The Collector" erased any real chance of it being Nathalie, but that's just how I feel at this very moment. I'm not going to dismiss it entirely so I get upset like people did about Hawk Moth's identity. He should also be able to recognise her voice, unless she changes it as Le Paon. The same goes for his wife. I find them both rather unlikely, but not to the degree I fould Mr Kubdel unlikely to be Hawk Moth- that one I thought was as likely as Marinette's dad being Hawk Moth.

      I personally hope she's Audrey Bourgeios, but as we know nothing about her, I have no evidence. And nobody has evidence against me, aside from the fact that her hair is cut in a bob, but to that I point to Cat Noir's hair changing.

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    • Volpina LQ (83) this if the proof that Voplina takes place on or around May 21st in Stormy Weather it is said that it takes place on the first day of summer June, not March.

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    • Alexiel Lucifen wrote:
      Volpina LQ (83) this if the proof that Voplina takes place on or around May 21st in Stormy Weather it is said that it takes place on the first day of summer June, not March.

      All she says is "summer vacation is over", actually, and if it happens on the Summer Equniox, her joke works just as well. I initally assumed she was on the first day of summer vacation, but that doesn't make any sense in the longrun. Not to me, anyway.

      Well, like I said- 21 May is impossible for this episode to happen on unless it's 2010 or 2021, but then none of the other dates we see match up with the calendar from "Copycat".

      Also, this is the Ladyblog from the day before her livestream in "The Pharaoh"

      PH S01EP06 (12)

      It's the 21st. And the picture beside it, the video, is the one that happened on the 15th in "Volpina".

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      I noticed Plagg said something a little... odd?

      He talks about maturing "El Plaggo" (some cheese) for 999 days. Which, I won't pretend that I'm any good at maths, but assuming I did add correctly, that's 2 years and 249 days. Which is like, 2 years, 8 months, and 4 days (ish, that number changes a little depending on what months you're working with, but that's from going back from December to May. Since I think "Volpina" takes place on 26 June based on the rest of the episodes placement, that number shifts to 2 years, 8 months, and 11 days because of having more months that have 30 days and including the 28 days long February.

      Anyway, whatever, the point is, how does Plagg know how long this cheese has been maturing unless he matured it himself?

      Before putting the Cat Noir Miraculous in Adrien's school bag, Master Fu probably took care of Plagg's dietary requirements, and they may have had conversations about it, since Plagg seems kind of demanding and particular. Since Plagg has the ability to phase through things, he may have returned to Master Fu's place on an occasion or two to grab some old cheese since Adrien first became Cat Noir, without his knowledge... maybe when Adrien was sleeping, or maybe Master Fu has some way of getting it to him without being seen. That's a lot easier for me to believe than that Adrien has been Cat Noir for two years and eight months.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      Before putting the Cat Noir Miraculous in Adrien's school bag, Master Fu probably took care of Plagg's dietary requirements, and they may have had conversations about it, since Plagg seems kind of demanding and particular. Since Plagg has the ability to phase through things, he may have returned to Master Fu's place on an occasion or two to grab some old cheese since Adrien first became Cat Noir, without his knowledge... maybe when Adrien was sleeping, or maybe Master Fu has some way of getting it to him without being seen. That's a lot easier for me to believe than that Adrien has been Cat Noir for two years and eight months.

      Yeah, that is easier to buy for sure, though I figured they slept in the Miraculouses until they were needed. I would guess, then, Master Fu got it to him without being seen. If Plagg can carry it, Wayzz probably can, and Adrien has one of his windows open a lot. It wouldn't be too hard to get it to Plagg.

      Like I said, it felt super weird for him to say that, but I was more hinting that there might have been a surprisingly recent Cat Noir somewhere else in the world, and Master Fu had only just come to Paris, but that makes no sense, either. "I can no longer do it alone" he said, and I had the impression the Ladybug and Black Cat had been asleep for quite some time.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Positronic wrote:

      Before putting the Cat Noir Miraculous in Adrien's school bag, Master Fu probably took care of Plagg's dietary requirements, and they may have had conversations about it, since Plagg seems kind of demanding and particular. Since Plagg has the ability to phase through things, he may have returned to Master Fu's place on an occasion or two to grab some old cheese since Adrien first became Cat Noir, without his knowledge... maybe when Adrien was sleeping, or maybe Master Fu has some way of getting it to him without being seen. That's a lot easier for me to believe than that Adrien has been Cat Noir for two years and eight months.

      Yeah, that is easier to buy for sure, though I figured they slept in the Miraculouses until they were needed. I would guess, then, Master Fu got it to him without being seen. If Plagg can carry it, Wayzz probably can, and Adrien has one of his windows open a lot. It wouldn't be too hard to get it to Plagg.

      Like I said, it felt super weird for him to say that, but I was more hinting that there might have been a surprisingly recent Cat Noir somewhere else in the world, and Master Fu had only just come to Paris, but that makes no sense, either. "I can no longer do it alone" he said, and I had the impression the Ladybug and Black Cat had been asleep for quite some time.

      Well, according to information on the Wikia, Duusu is dormant within the Peacock Miraculous... but I can't see what textual information that's based on. Maybe she is, but I can't see that it's definite. So far as I can remember, the only time in the series I've seen a Kwami go into a Miraculous is when Ladybug or Cat Noir transform. It's possible that Duusu is dormant in the Peacock brooch because she's bored and has no one to talk to -- but maybe she's become separated from it somehow. It doesn't seem to be established anywhere how long a Kwami can survive being separated from its Miraculous, or how near the Kwami needs to remain to it. Normally no one but the holder of the Miraculous can see or speak with its Kwami, but Master Fu is an exception to that rule... he can see and speak with Tikki, even though he's not her owner.

      It also occurs to me that since the Peacock Miraculous is nominally in Gabriel Agreste's possession, that makes him Duusu's master. If she's truly in there, then all he would need to do is hold it in his hand and command her to appear -- and he could force her to answer any questions that he has that she might know the answers to. So if she's in there, it seems likely he would have already done so, and he may have. We have no way of knowing. Whether the fact that Plagg appears to ignore the Peacock Miraculous when he removed the book from Agreste's safe is indicative of anything is hard to say -- but it's at least possible that Duusu not being in there is a reason why he takes no interest in it.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      Well, according to information on the Wikia, Duusu is dormant within the Peacock Miraculous... but I can't see what textual information that's based on. Maybe she is, but I can't see that it's definite. So far as I can remember, the only time in the series I've seen a Kwami go into a Miraculous is when Ladybug or Cat Noir transform. It's possible that Duusu is dormant in the Peacock brooch because she's bored and has no one to talk to -- but maybe she's become separated from it somehow. It doesn't seem to be established anywhere how long a Kwami can survive being separated from its Miraculous, or how near the Kwami needs to remain to it. Normally no one but the holder of the Miraculous can see or speak with its Kwami, but Master Fu is an exception to that rule... he can see and speak with Tikki, even though he's not her owner.

      The dormant, unworn Miraculouses bear the appearance of having the kwami inside them. We see this with both Tikki and Nooroo. When they disappear/get sucked in their Miraculouses after being renounced, the Miraculous takes the appearances they have for Ladybug and Hawk Moth (though it seems the Moth Brooch's wings are flexible, because their position is different I think, unless he put the brooch in sideways). In "Princess Fragrance", Tikki and Marinette spend a lot of time quite a ways apart. Plus, as Plagg and Tikki point out, they must remain a secret. They can't do that if they're wandering around outside their Miraculouses, because ordinary people like Chloe in "Princess Fragrance" and a mother and her child in "Pixelator" can see Tikki. I don't think the kwami can just go back to being invisible, either. Not just because of the first thing I mentioned (the ring is silver when Plagg is no longer in it, but Ladybug's earrings are still spotted. One of them is an animation error, presumably. I would guess it's the earrings because they often undergo that error, and when you see them next in Marinette's ears, they're black), but because if they wander away from their Miraculous, how are they supposed to be called?

      Marinette talks to Wayzz, too. So I think the Miraculouses allow them to be seen by anyone through the naked eye.

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    • You're right about Tikki and Wayzz being seen by Chloe and others. I'd forgotten about the woman and child, and assumed it was because Tikki was ill and not at full power in Chloe's case, and that Kwamis would be visible to other Miraculous users because they already know the secret of the Miraculous. It's just that they can't be photographed.

      I'm not convinced we can tell if Duusu's inside the Peacock Miraculous in Gabriel's safe, since we've never seen it in activated mode (as worn by its user) or when Duusu is definitely separated from it for comparison purposes. If Duusu's in there, I'm virtually convinced that Gabriel must have questioned her at least once since his wife's disappearance. If she's not, it seems pretty likely that the reason she's NOT has something to do with Mrs. Agreste's disappeance -- she didn't choose to abandon it by choice. Then again, we've no idea how it actually works if someone WERE to remove a hero's miraculous while they're transformed -- they might not transform back immediately, separating the Kwami from the miraculous, or trapping it inside. There may be a short time delay or something, the same as after the hero has activated her special power.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      You're right about Tikki and Wayzz being seen by Chloe and others. I'd forgotten about the woman and child, and assumed it was because Tikki was ill and not at full power in Chloe's case, and that Kwamis would be visible to other Miraculous users because they already know the secret of the Miraculous. It's just that they can't be photographed.

      I'm not convinced we can tell if Duusu's inside the Peacock Miraculous in Gabriel's safe, since we've never seen it in activated mode (as worn by its user) or when Duusu is definitely separated from it for comparison purposes. If Duusu's in there, I'm virtually convinced that Gabriel must have questioned her at least once since his wife's disappearance. If she's not, it seems pretty likely that the reason she's NOT has something to do with Mrs. Agreste's disappeance -- she didn't choose to abandon it by choice.

      I think the Gorilla also hears her at one point, but he might have just heard Marinette talking to "her bag". But yeah, it seems that the Miraculouses allow kwamis to be seen by all humans.

      Oh, I've thought about that before, too, now you mention it. I proposed she wasn't in there, and that's why Plagg didn't notice her Miraculous. This is what I said on the subject:

      from TV Tropes :
      We can figure it out by examining Wayzz and Master Fu's exchange in the Origins episode regarding Nooroo, as well as taking a look at Lady Wifi. Firstly, Wayzz specifically says that he can detect Nooroo's power being in use, and Master Fu expresses surprise, since he thought the Moth Brooch was lost forever. From this exchange, we learn two things- Wayzz at the very least can detect when a kwami's power is in use. Not the Miraculous, but the kwami. Second, we learn that a dormant Miraculous is undetectable, at least from a long range. Since Word of God says its "weird" that Plagg didn't notice it, we can assume that a kwami can be close to a dormant Miraculous and detect the kwami inside it. And it must be the kwami- Wayzz was very specific in saying that he could detect the Moth Brooch's movements based on what was happening to Nooroo. Now, in Lady Wifi, there are a few things that happen- the Black Cat Miraculous falls off of Adrien's hand and gets lost. Not only is Plagg still around, which contrasts sharply with how removing the Ladybug Miraculous by choice makes Tikki disappear, but Plagg cannot sense his own Miraculous. He's totally unable to help Adrien find the ring. After all, there's no kwami in it to detect. If we look at Wayzz's dialogue a little more and compare it to some of Tikki's in Timebreaker, as well as the fact that Tikki and Plagg have not noticed each other, we can see that a kwami out of its jewellery is possibly undetectable, but this changes if their powers are in use, like when they've helped someone transform. Looking at all of that, it's very likely that Duusu, the kwami of the Peacock Pin, was not in the Miraculous, which is why Plagg wasn't able to detect her. Duusu can exist out of the brooch without the brooch needing to be with its user, it just means the user can't transform. It's possible that the brooch fell off and Agreste found or obtained it thereafter, and Duusu is trapped outside her Miraculous.

      But I don't really agree with this guess any more, in part I did make an error when writing it- Wayzz doesn't actually mention that he can sense Nooroo specifically, just the power of the Miraculous. I mean, I agree with it in the sense that it's still mostly plausible, but I disagree with it in the sense I no longer believe Duusu is not in her Miraculous. I think Duusu is still in there, sleeping, but she hasn't been activated in a very long time, or Wayzz would have noticed. But it is, hypothetically, possible that if a Miraculous falls off like Adrien's did, and the Miraculous is spirited away, Miraculous would no longer technically work because it wasn't removed willingly and the kwami isn't in it. We know that the Miraculouses can't call the kwami back to it, because Marinette was unable to do that and Tikki never told her that if they're separated again, how to get her back to her. But this might work differently if the kwami has to go to a new master.

      Peacock Miraculous and Weapon Page
      It is worth, also, bringing up for the fifth time or something on this wiki, heh) this error I found but still can't figure out what's wrong with it. No, not so much what but why. In that picture to the right is the Peacock's tool. Now, here's the error (or whatever it is) that I found- in the equivilent Black Cat, Ladybug, Fox, and Moth pages we clearly get a look at, this page with the tool has two things on it- the tool, and the transformed Miraculous. That blue thing is very obviously not the Peacock Miraculous. I mean, its a different shape and it's blue. It's shown a little better in the Collector's episode, but it's pretty hard to see still. So it's actually quite plausible that she isn't in the Miraculous, or that green one is simply not the Miraculous as we've been led to believe by the intros. But either way, this is most peculiar. This may be why we have not yet seen le Paon's chest. She wears the brooch somewhere behind her hand fan. Perhaps it's meant to hide from us that the green thing isn't the Miraculous after all? It's just something he made for his wife or that she once owned.

      Which probably means his wife is Le Paon, or they're going to try and pull the same stunt people wanted them to be doing with Gabriel where they heavily imply it but then yank the rug out from under us and it's someone else entirely, but unlike with Gabriel, you look back and go "Ohhhhh!!!" because the entire time you were being misdirected from the truth. I really hope it's the latter and not Mrs Agreste, but I think that would anger just as many people. I don't really want her to be Nathalie (especially not after "The Collector"; before that I was ok with it but not a fan), I don't want Adrien to have two supervillains living in his house. I'd rather it be Audrey or something.

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    • If I had to bet I'd say there have been or will be two users of the Peacock Miraculous in the last couple of years -- one of whom is Gabriel Agreste or Mrs. Agreste -- or both. One prior to Mrs. Agreste's disappearance and Gabriel Agreste's first transformation into Hawk Moth, and one about-to-be user in the role. Both could be the same person, but for some reason I tend to think not.

      My two preferred theories are that Gabriel was the former Le Paon, and Mrs. Agreste the new one, or that Mrs. Agreste was the former Le Paon, and Nathalie Sancoeur is the new one.

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    • Positronic wrote: If I had to bet I'd say there have been or will be two users of the Peacock Miraculous in the last couple of years -- one of whom is Gabriel Agreste or Mrs. Agreste -- or both. One prior to Mrs. Agreste's disappearance and Gabriel Agreste's first transformation into Hawk Moth, and one about-to-be user in the role. Both could be the same person, but for some reason I tend to think not.

      My two preferred theories are that Gabriel was the former Le Paon, and Mrs. Agreste the new one, or that Mrs. Agreste was the former Le Paon, and Nathalie Sancoeur is the new one.

      I don’t think there have been, because Master Fu says he thinks whoever is Hawk Moth has the book and the Peacock Miraculous. But he says when the Moth is activated he thought it was lost forever. Since the Peacock was lost at the same time and he thinks/knows Hawk Moth likely has it, then the Peacock has not been active.

      I still don’t think either of them could work out. Surely Gabriel would recognise at least their voices. I can’t use Le Paon’s appearance as an argument because of how much Hawk Moth changes. And how she obviously turns blue. I really hope she’s someone we haven’t seen until we have any clue as to who she is. Nathalie and Mrs Agreste are tied to the Miraculous but I really hope this is just a red herring. I really don’t like the idea of all the villains being close to Adrien and having his mom be eviler than his dad. Cuz Le Paon is reportedly worse than he is. And she comes in and becomes his “boss” through apparently fear. I hate the idea that Adrien’s mom could do that and that Nathalie is secretly evil even though she’s displayed some care for Adrien despite her mostly emotionless personality.

      Gabriel being Hawk Moth and her knowing does change all their interactions though.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:

      Positronic wrote: If I had to bet I'd say there have been or will be two users of the Peacock Miraculous in the last couple of years -- one of whom is Gabriel Agreste or Mrs. Agreste -- or both. One prior to Mrs. Agreste's disappearance and Gabriel Agreste's first transformation into Hawk Moth, and one about-to-be user in the role. Both could be the same person, but for some reason I tend to think not.

      My two preferred theories are that Gabriel was the former Le Paon, and Mrs. Agreste the new one, or that Mrs. Agreste was the former Le Paon, and Nathalie Sancoeur is the new one.

      I don’t think there have been, because Master Fu says he thinks whoever is Hawk Moth has the book and the Peacock Miraculous. But he says when the Moth is activated he thought it was lost forever. Since the Peacock was lost at the same time and he thinks/knows Hawk Moth likely has it, then the Peacock has not been active.

      I still don’t think either of them could work out. Surely Gabriel would recognise at least their voices. I can’t use Le Paon’s appearance as an argument because of how much Hawk Moth changes. And how she obviously turns blue. I really hope she’s someone we haven’t seen until we have any clue as to who she is. Nathalie and Mrs Agreste are tied to the Miraculous but I really hope this is just a red herring. I really don’t like the idea of all the villains being close to Adrien and having his mom be eviler than his dad. Cuz Le Paon is reportedly worse than he is. And she comes in and becomes his “boss” through apparently fear. I hate the idea that Adrien’s mom could do that and that Nathalie is secretly evil even though she’s displayed some care for Adrien despite her mostly emotionless personality.

      Gabriel being Hawk Moth and her knowing does change all their interactions though.

      All that Master Fu tells us is that the book and both the Peacock and Butterfly Miraculous were lost at the same time. He doesn't say anything about whether the two Miraculous had been in recent use before they were lost. He just tells Marinette that he was responsible for the loss of the two Miraculous, but he doesn't say how exactly. He points to their missing places on the box to show her exactly which Miraculous he's referring to, but he never says that they were taken out of the box by someone or that he himself somehow removed them and they were subsequently lost -- just that they were lost. If anyone was using them, he may have believed the users went missing as well, or may be dead. Master Fu may be well aware of who was using them before they went missing, but the identity of the users isn't relevant to what he has to say to Marinette, so he doesn't mention anything about that. He seems purposefully vague in not detailing how exactly he is responsible for their loss, so the story might be involved and she doesn't really have a need to know.

      The curious thing here is that Master Fu believed (accurately, as it turns out) that the two Miraculous were now in the possession of Hawk Moth. Surely Master Fu is aware that Hawk Moth's goal is to collect the Ladybug and Cat Noir Miraculous, so if Master Fu is hinting that he believes that whoever is Hawk Moth was somehow able to remove the Butterfly and Peacock Miraculous from the box while he was supposed to be guarding it... then why didn't that person also remove the Ladybug and Cat Noir Miraculous? Those are the ones that Hawk Moth REALLY wants, so the story must be more complicated than that.

      We know that Master Fu believes he is the sole surviving Guardian of the Order of the Miraculous, and that he fled with the box containing the remaining Miraculous when his temple was destroyed. What was the cause of the destruction, and why? If it were merely to steal two of the Miraculous out of the box during the confusion, it seems like a lot of trouble to go to, and then not steal them all. On the other hand, maybe they were lost because all of them were being used by Chosen Ones -- possibly in a battle against users not chosen -- that resulted in destroying the Guardians' temple, and the deaths of many heroes. Master Fu, as the sole survivor, may have collected as many of the Miraculous from their deceased users as he could, but the Butterfly and Peacock Miraculous, he did not find -- but he may have some idea what happened to their users. How exactly Master Fu was "responsible" for this chain of events, we don't know.

      If Gabriel can recognize voices, then he knows Adrien is Cat Noir already. If he really wants his Miraculous, he should just wait until he's sleeping and take it from him before he wakes up.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      All that Master Fu tells us is that the book and both the Peacock and Butterfly Miraculous were lost at the same time. He doesn't say anything about whether the two Miraculous had been in recent use before they were lost. He just tells Marinette that he was responsible for the loss of the two Miraculous, but he doesn't say how exactly. He points to their missing places on the box to show her exactly which Miraculous he's referring to, but he never says that they were taken out of the box by someone or that he himself somehow removed them and they were subsequently lost -- just that they were lost. If anyone was using them, he may have believed the users went missing as well, or may be dead. Master Fu may be well aware of who was using them before they went missing, but the identity of the users isn't relevant to what he has to say to Marinette, so he doesn't mention anything about that. He seems purposefully vague in not detailing how exactly he is responsible for their loss, so the story might be involved and she doesn't really have a need to know.

      The curious thing here is that Master Fu believed (accurately, as it turns out) that the two Miraculous were now in the possession of Hawk Moth. Surely Master Fu is aware that Hawk Moth's goal is to collect the Ladybug and Cat Noir Miraculous, so if Master Fu is hinting that he believes that whoever is Hawk Moth was somehow able to remove the Butterfly and Peacock Miraculous from the box while he was supposed to be guarding it... then why didn't that person also remove the Ladybug and Cat Noir Miraculous? Those are the ones that Hawk Moth REALLY wants, so the story must be more complicated than that.

      We know that Master Fu believes he is the sole surviving Guardian of the Order of the Miraculous, and that he fled with the box containing the remaining Miraculous when his temple was destroyed. What was the cause of the destruction, and why? If it were merely to steal two of the Miraculous out of the box during the confusion, it seems like a lot of trouble to go to, and then not steal them all. On the other hand, maybe they were lost because all of them were being used by Chosen Ones -- possibly in a battle against users not chosen -- that resulted in destroying the Guardians' temple, and the deaths of many heroes. Master Fu, as the sole survivor, may have collected as many of the Miraculous from their deceased users as he could, but the Butterfly and Peacock Miraculous, he did not find -- but he may have some idea what happened to their users. How exactly Master Fu was "responsible" for this chain of events, we don't know.

      If Gabriel can recognize voices, then he knows Adrien is Cat Noir already. If he really wants his Miraculous, he should just wait until he's sleeping and take it from him before he wakes up.

      I don't just take all my information from one scene- it's in Origins he talks about the lack of activity of the Moth Miraculous and how he thought it had been lost. If the Peacock and the Moth were together, then logic dictates the Peacock hasn't been active, either. Otherwise he wouldn't think the Moth was "lost". He and Wayzz have this exchange:
      Wayzz: Master, the Moth Miraculous, I felt its aura.
      Master Fu: I thought it had been lost forever!

      So they were straight-up lost when the thing burnt down. Otherwise he'd have no reason to think they were "lost forever". He didn't make it out of there with the Moth and Peacock Miraculouses. Whether they were stolen or he just couldn't get to them remains to be seen, but Gabriel did not steal them. Why are people so stuck on Gabriel being the one to steal the Moth and Peacock? He didn't. He found them and the book, and because they were all lost around the same time (I think he must have accidentally lost the three of them when fleeing, like the box opened and he lost the Moth and Butterfly Miraculouses and the Book), he deducted they were together and with the Moth Miraculous being activated, he deduced that the book, the Moth, and the Peacock were together and that Hawk Moth must have them.

      I think what happened was Master Fu tried to use one or more of the Miraculouses, maybe the Black Cat and Ladybug, or gave someone access to them, and they destroyed the temple because they couldn't control the power. We actually have no proof any of the Miraculous were active at the time of the destruction or that any active ones were there at the time- as Guardians, they wouldn't be using the Miraculouses. That doesn't make any sense to me. So the only Miraculouses there had to be inactive ones.

      But he actually might is the thing. He notices the similarities between his son and Cat Noir. I think he's always known and refused to believe it, but he can't steal the ring from him in the middle of the night. He has to take it from Cat Noir. He might not have recognised the voice at once because Gabriel does not spend a lot of time with his son.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Positronic wrote:

      All that Master Fu tells us is that the book and both the Peacock and Butterfly Miraculous were lost at the same time. He doesn't say anything about whether the two Miraculous had been in recent use before they were lost. He just tells Marinette that he was responsible for the loss of the two Miraculous, but he doesn't say how exactly. He points to their missing places on the box to show her exactly which Miraculous he's referring to, but he never says that they were taken out of the box by someone or that he himself somehow removed them and they were subsequently lost -- just that they were lost. If anyone was using them, he may have believed the users went missing as well, or may be dead. Master Fu may be well aware of who was using them before they went missing, but the identity of the users isn't relevant to what he has to say to Marinette, so he doesn't mention anything about that. He seems purposefully vague in not detailing how exactly he is responsible for their loss, so the story might be involved and she doesn't really have a need to know.

      The curious thing here is that Master Fu believed (accurately, as it turns out) that the two Miraculous were now in the possession of Hawk Moth. Surely Master Fu is aware that Hawk Moth's goal is to collect the Ladybug and Cat Noir Miraculous, so if Master Fu is hinting that he believes that whoever is Hawk Moth was somehow able to remove the Butterfly and Peacock Miraculous from the box while he was supposed to be guarding it... then why didn't that person also remove the Ladybug and Cat Noir Miraculous? Those are the ones that Hawk Moth REALLY wants, so the story must be more complicated than that.

      We know that Master Fu believes he is the sole surviving Guardian of the Order of the Miraculous, and that he fled with the box containing the remaining Miraculous when his temple was destroyed. What was the cause of the destruction, and why? If it were merely to steal two of the Miraculous out of the box during the confusion, it seems like a lot of trouble to go to, and then not steal them all. On the other hand, maybe they were lost because all of them were being used by Chosen Ones -- possibly in a battle against users not chosen -- that resulted in destroying the Guardians' temple, and the deaths of many heroes. Master Fu, as the sole survivor, may have collected as many of the Miraculous from their deceased users as he could, but the Butterfly and Peacock Miraculous, he did not find -- but he may have some idea what happened to their users. How exactly Master Fu was "responsible" for this chain of events, we don't know.

      If Gabriel can recognize voices, then he knows Adrien is Cat Noir already. If he really wants his Miraculous, he should just wait until he's sleeping and take it from him before he wakes up.

      I don't just take all my information from one scene- it's in Origins he talks about the lack of activity of the Moth Miraculous and how he thought it had been lost. If the Peacock and the Moth were together, then logic dictates the Peacock hasn't been active, either. Otherwise he wouldn't think the Moth was "lost". He and Wayzz have this exchange:
      Wayzz: Master, the Moth Miraculous, I felt its aura.
      Master Fu: I thought it had been lost forever!

      So they were straight-up lost when the thing burnt down. Otherwise he'd have no reason to think they were "lost forever". He didn't make it out of there with the Moth and Peacock Miraculouses. Whether they were stolen or he just couldn't get to them remains to be seen, but Gabriel did not steal them. Why are people so stuck on Gabriel being the one to steal the Moth and Peacock? He didn't. He found them and the book, and because they were all lost around the same time (I think he must have accidentally lost the three of them when fleeing, like the box opened and he lost the Moth and Butterfly Miraculouses and the Book), he deducted they were together and with the Moth Miraculous being activated, he deduced that the book, the Moth, and the Peacock were together and that Hawk Moth must have them.

      I think what happened was Master Fu tried to use one or more of the Miraculouses, maybe the Black Cat and Ladybug, or gave someone access to them, and they destroyed the temple because they couldn't control the power. We actually have no proof any of the Miraculous were active at the time of the destruction or that any active ones were there at the time- as Guardians, they wouldn't be using the Miraculouses. That doesn't make any sense to me. So the only Miraculouses there had to be inactive ones.

      But he actually might is the thing. He notices the similarities between his son and Cat Noir. I think he's always known and refused to believe it, but he can't steal the ring from him in the middle of the night. He has to take it from Cat Noir. He might not have recognised the voice at once because Gabriel does not spend a lot of time with his son.

      What I'm trying to establish here is the idea that what Master Fu is not telling us about the exact circumstances of how he's responsible for the loss of the book and the two Miraculous, and the destruction of the temple, are exactly the details we need to know to understand how & why Mrs. Agreste disappeared, and how and why Gabriel Agreste changed to become the man he is today -- that Master Fu's untold story and Gabriel & Mrs. Agreste's untold story are in fact... exactly the same story. I don't believe that those things are unrelated, and that Master Fu's mistake was simply one of carelessness, losing the Moth and Peacock Miraculous and the book while fleeing the destruction of the temple in panic. The reason for the destruction of the temple is key, and you simply seem to be waving that off as unimportant.

      There is one final fact that we know that is relevant to that mystery. Master Fu tells Wayzz that he was only responsible for making the wrong choice of a Miraculous holder once -- and that it will never happen again... he hopes. And if we were to know the exact circumstances surrounding what he's referring to, that is also part of the exact same story involving the destruction of the temple, the loss of the book and Miraculous, and Mrs. Agreste's disappearance.

      If Master Fu went from believing that the Moth Miraculous was lost forever to believing it (and the book and Peacock Miraculous) is in the possession of Hawk Moth, then he may have now guessed Hawk Moth's true identity, based on the circumstances behind the destruction of the temple and the wrong choice of user that he once made. We simply can't guess what he was implying by his original belief that the Moth Miraculous was "lost forever", without knowing the circumstances surrounding the destruction of the temple, the rest of the Guardians (whom, it seems likely, were also holders of various Miraculous, just as Master Fu is the holder of the Turtle Miraculous), and why it's his fault.

      Apart from the fact that he believed the rest of the Guardians were dead, there may have been other people involved (like that Wrong Choice of whom he spoke) whom he also believed died in the destruction of the temple. What was the Guardians' true purpose? Well, to guard the Miraculous, obviously -- but does that simply mean they sat around in their temple, taking turns babysitting a box full of Miraculous that went unused otherwise, but at least they could be certain that they remained safely out of the wrong hands? That doesn't seem like they make very good facilitators of the Kwamis' intentions in creating the Miraculous in the first place -- to help humankind, if they aren't making a continuous effort to seek out worthy users -- and maybe the best Guardians are active users of Miraculous themselves.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      What I'm trying to establish here is the idea that what Master Fu is not telling us about the exact circumstances of how he's responsible for the loss of the book and the two Miraculous, and the destruction of the temple, are exactly the details we need to know to understand how & why Mrs. Agreste disappeared, and how and why Gabriel Agreste changed to become the man he is today -- that Master Fu's untold story and Gabriel & Mrs. Agreste's untold story are in fact... exactly the same story. I don't believe that those things are unrelated, and that Master Fu's mistake was simply one of carelessness.

      There is one final fact that we know that is relevant to that mystery. Master Fu tells Wayzz that he was only responsible for making the wrong choice of a Miraculous holder once -- and that it will never happen again... he hopes. And if we were to know the exact circumstances surrounding what he's referring to, that is also part of the exact same story involving the destruction of the temple, the loss of the book and Miraculous, and Mrs. Agreste's disappearance.

      If Master Fu went from believing that the Moth Miraculous was lost forever to believing it (and the book and Peacock Miraculous) is in the possession of Hawk Moth, then he may have now guessed Hawk Moth's true identity, based on the circumstances behind the destruction of the temple and the wrong choice of user that he once made. We simply can't guess what he was implying by his original belief that the Moth Miraculous was "lost forever", without knowing the circumstances surrounding the destruction of the temple, the rest of the Guardians (whom, it seems likely, were also holders of various Miraculous, just as Master Fu is the holder of the Turtle Miraculous), and why it's his fault.

      So he lied about when it happened? The dude's 186, but the flashback shows he was no older than maybe 15 when everything went wrong. That's a pretty big lie to tell- why'd he tell it? I think he's not telling the whole truth, too, but more in the sense that he's not giving away all the information because he blames himself entirely and not the person who manipulated him and absconded with the two Miraculouses and the Book (possibly while faking his death as they fled).

      I don't think any of the Guardians were Miraculous holders. That makes no sense to me- they're Guardians, not bearers. Master Fu likely uses one because he's the only Guardian left so he needs some kind of aid to protect the Miraculouses and he might need the Turtle specifically to extend his life. He even says what the duty of a Guardian is, something he has no reason to lie about.

      Maybe I'm just not understanding? Here's what I think went down:

      The Order of the Guardians train to protect the Miraculouses. They do not train to use them, just keep them safe until a worthy person comes along ("We guardians are responsible for protecting and distributing the Miraculous. For the good of all humanity. We are chosen in childhood and train for many years especially for this mission" -Master Fu, The Collector). Years before Master Fu came along, there was another Guardian who was highly praised for his skills but he grew resentful that despite everything he did, he would never be given a Miraculous. He became a teacher and divised a plan to get ahold of the Miraculouses, manipulating and tempting a young Master Fu and possibly someone else into using a Miraculous to fight a... giant squid? Tentacle monster? Whatever it is, and did his best to put the other teachers in a bad light (they likely berated him for using a Miraculous while this manipulative one didn't) so Master Fu would trust his guidance most of all. Master Fu wanted to use the Miraculouses again to protect against some threat like before, but it went catastrophically wrong. He might have tried to use the power of the Ladybug and Black Cat combined. He never meant for what happened to happen, and so he tried to save the Miraculouses and the Book. Because the flashback shows he made it out with the book, that means the Moth and Peacock were with him, too. So, I think this teacher or another trainee who was involved with the whole thing made it out also, and helped Master Fu so he could later get the Miraculouses. Except something happened, and the two Miraculouses were lost along with the Book and this teacher or trainee. But Master Fu never really suspected him. "When we were much, much younger, we- err, I- made a mistake. The Guardians' temple was destroyed, all because of me! Two of the Miraculouses were lost that day- the Butterfly and the Peacock. Also gone forever was the ancient Spellbook!"- Master Fu, "The Collector". This last quote implies that two people were involved in what happened, but Master Fu blames himself for it, so something happened to the other person or he simply never suspected the other person had anything to do with it even if they did.

      I think something like that happened. Guardians don't use the Miraculouses and this breeds temptation, Master Fu was manipulated and tempted into using them by someone who wanted them, his inability to control the power of the one he chose destroyed everything, and he lost the two Miraculouses and the Book attempting to help someone escape with him. He chose the Turtle because it has lognevity and because it's maybe ill-suited for offence.

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    • Okay, you've convinced me that a Guardian normally would not be a user of the Miraculous. But regardless of that, their primary purpose must be to continually keep track of the status of each Miraculous and its user. Many such users must have died trying to perform their duty of helping the Kwamis to help humanity, or their Miraculous may have been taken from them somehow, or been lost, its location unknown -- this must have happened many times, but the search for such lost Miraculous is an ongoing one. Whenever such a situation occurs, it is the duty of a Guardian to find a Miraculous no longer in use by a worthy user, and then pass it on to another chosen as worthy to use it, as soon as possible. There must have been many situations in which a Miraculous was lost temporarily, but for the most part the Guardians are wasting no time in getting a Miraculous into the hands of someone chosen as worthy to use it. That purpose supercedes just protecting an unused Miraculous from falling into the wrong hands. As he is now the sole surviving Guardian (so far as he is aware), Master Fu's task is not an enviable one... but if he's still performing his task as a Guardian, why would he wait from the time he fled the temple until the time he chose Marinette and Adrien as users of the Ladybug and Cat Noir Miraculous? He must have chosen others in the intervening years since the temple's destruction.

      That still leaves the question of who Master Fu is referring to when he speaks of making his wrong choice, and this must have occurred after the destruction of the temple, because that wasn't an ordinary situation involving choosing a Miraculous user. How does Master Fu know that both the book and the Peacock Miraculous are in the hands of Hawk Moth? He can easily deduce that he has found the Moth Miraculous, but if Master Fu has no suspicion of who Hawk Moth is, then he couldn't have known he'd have the book and Peacock Miraculous, since those haven't been used since Gabriel became Hawk Moth. Master Fu's knowledge of who has all of those items must mean that the wrong choice Master Fu made was either Gabriel or Mrs. Agreste. It can't be both because he says he only made the wrong choice once, but what Master Fu knows about his wrong choice must somehow be tied to what led to Mrs. Agreste's disappearance. If the Peacock Miraculous hasn't been used since its loss during the temple's destruction, why does he think Hawk Moth had it, and the book as well? You can say he just assumed that since he lost all three at the time of the temple's destruction, he just assumes that all three must have been found by the same person, but that seems like an unwarranted conclusion. We also have to ask how it is that Gabriel comes to learn of the existence of the Miraculous in the first place, and knows enough to go looking for them near the ruins of a destroyed temple in Tibet. It hardly seems like an accidental tourist destination for a vacationing fashion designer.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Okay, you've convinced me that a Guardian normally would not be a user of the Miraculous. But regardless of that, their primary purpose must be to continually keep track of the status of each Miraculous and its user. Many such users must have died trying to perform their duty of helping the Kwamis to help humanity, or their Miraculous may have been taken from them somehow, or been lost, its location unknown -- this must have happened many times, but the search for such lost Miraculous is an ongoing one. Whenever such a situation occurs, it is the duty of a Guardian to find a Miraculous no longer in use by a worthy user, and then pass it on to another chosen as worthy to use it, as soon as possible. There must have been many situations in which a Miraculous was lost temporarily, but for the most part the Guardians are wasting no time in getting a Miraculous into the hands of someone chosen as worthy to use it. That purpose supercedes just protecting an unused Miraculous from falling into the wrong hands. As he is now the sole surviving Guardian (so far as he is aware), Master Fu's task is not an enviable one.

      That still leaves the question of who Master Fu is referring to when he speaks of making his wrong choice, and this must have occurred after the destruction of the temple, because that wasn't an ordinary situation involving choosing a Miraculous user. How does Master Fu know that both the book and the Peacock Miraculous are in the hands of Hawk Moth? He can easily deduce that he has found the Moth Miraculous, but if Master Fu has no suspicion of who Hawk Moth is, then he couldn't have known he'd have the book and Peacock Miraculous, since those haven't been used since Gabriel became Hawk Moth. Master Fu's knowledge of who has all of those items must mean that the wrong choice Master Fu made was either Gabriel or Mrs. Agreste. It can't be both because he says he only made the wrong choice once, but what Master Fu knows about his wrong choice must somehow be tied to what led to Mrs. Agreste's disappearance. If the Peacock Miraculous hasn't been used since its loss during the temple's destruction, why does he think Hawk Moth has it, and the book as well?

      I also think many of them die. Like the suit makes you mostly invulnerable, but magic can still kill you (as seen in "Timebreaker") and obviously you can die when not suited up. I think many of them would make the choice to had the Miraculous back over to the Order, because Miraculouses are usually given to good, honest people. So I don't think they were usually missing for long. Hawk Moth is only never found because he never shows himself in public, but I don't think other Miraculouses can be used privately. His seems to be a special case, though I suspect the Peacock is the same way.

      He doesn't say he knew there was a tie between Hawk Moth and the book- he says he suspected it because they went missing together ("I've always believed that whoever possessed this spellbook must also have the Peacock and the Butterfly Miraculous"). Considering how they all went missing at the same time, this is a fairly logical conclusion. They went missing together in the same location. At the end of the episode, when Marinette says Gabriel was akumatised and so that might not mean he's Hawk Moth, Master Fu agrees, but seems hesitant. He doesn't deny it and say that he must be Hawk Moth because he has the Book. He seems unwilling to believe it because it means they're no closer to learning who Hawk Moth is and it means they may never find the missing Peacock Miraculous. And Gabriel may not even have it himself- like I mentioned before, the Miraculous in the Book and the Miraculous in the safe are two completely different objects.

      I don't think his mistake has anything to do with Mrs Agreste. Time-wise, it doesn't match up. The two Miraculouses and the Book went missing 170 years ago or so. Master Fu says he lost them on the same day the incident happened, and he's very young in the flashbacks and even says he was young at the time. I think his mistake is with either the conspicuously missing as of this typing Rabbit, or with either the Ladybug or Black Cat. He was talking about the Ladybug and Black Cat at the time, so it's possible his mistake was with one of them. It could be the Black Cat, because it possesses such destructive power it's "beyond catastrophic" in the wrong hands, but I think his mistake was with the Ladybug.

      Tikki and Plagg should logically have the same base rules for being a Miraculous bearer, but Plagg has only two, as does Nooroo: Nobody can know about the kwamis, and the Miraculous are meant to be used for good. Plagg gives the first rule and Nooroo the second, but the way they talk about them, it seems that this is a rule applied to all kwamis. But neither of them make mention about secret identities. Plagg outright encourages Adrien to learn Ladybug's, and Nooroo doesn't bring it up in either if his small appearances, and Hawk Moth never acts like it's a mandatory thing, just something he wants to keep secret. With Jeanne d'Arc being a past Ladybug, and her being one of the only ones who doesn't have a name meaning "Ladybug" (as far as I can tell, it's just her and Hippolyta) and not wearing a mask, she did not keep her identity secret, so this was not always a rule of Tikki's. So, something happened that traumatised Tikki bad enough she freaks out on Marinette every time she even skirts near Ladybug getting too personal. That something may have been this mysterious "mistake".

      That or the "mistake" was a throwaway line mocking Felix and actually means nothing and we've all been chasing nothing on that front, but I doubt it.

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    • I'm glad you brought up the "secret identity rule" because I've been thinking about that quite a bit, and trying to decide what it means when Tikki says it to Marinette about Ladybug's identity must remain secret. When Tikki says that, does the essence of what she's imparting to Marinette fall under the description of Good Advice, or Absolute Law? If it's only Tikki's opinion, then it's merely sage counsel (Good Advice) from a being who's been in existence since the beginning of creation and been an advisor to thousands of Ladybugs over millenia. Not keeping her secret would lead to complications in Marinette's life which would make Tikki's goal of helping humanity all the more difficult. If it's Absolute Law then it's an end-user agreement that's binding and has absolute consequences, which probably go into effect automatically -- by which it implies that Marinette can only remain Tikki's mistress and guarantee her cooperation and the lending of her magic power if she agrees to abide by it. That would mean that what Tikki is saying is that if she fails to keep her identity secret, she loses her power to transform into Ladybug. If the latter is true, it's hard to see how Tikki would have different rules of operation than other Kwamis, so then it's probably true of all Miraculous users relationships to their Kwamis. Even though we don't see any exchanges of that nature between Plagg and Adrien or Nooroo and Gabriel, we can note that Plagg reminds Adrien that nobody can know he exists -- which at least seems to imply keeping an essential secret of the same nature, and Cat Noir's behaviour in keeping his identity secret (even though he'd probably love to let Ladybug know) seems to reinforce that idea. Nooroo only cooperates with Gabriel in lending his powers under duress, and Gabriel always seems cautious about maintaining his secret, even to the point of foregoing his primary goal of collecting LB & CN's Miraculous when he akumatizes himself as the Collector. Why does he waste his new powers and lead the battle to a hasty conclusion where his identity can be discovered, thereby diverting suspicion of Hawk Moth's identity, and secondarily increasing the chances of recovering the spellbook? Why did he take no precautions before that to make his true identity as The Collector difficult to discover, prolonging the battle with L&C, and increasing his odds of attaining their Miraculous? It makes sense that he lets this opportunity slide by if the overriding concern is protection of Hawk Moth's secret identity over and above his personal goal of attaining those Miraculous... that would tend to reinforce the idea that it's part of the basic user agreement he must abide by if Nooroo is going to continue to obey him and lend him his powers as Hawk Moth. There is no such complementary agreement governing a Miraculous holder's discovery of different Miraculous holder's true identity, however -- we know that because Plagg questions Adrien's letting his opportunity to discover Ladybug's identity pass by. Master Fu has let Marinette in on the secret that he is the holder of the Turtle Miraculous, but that doesn't prove anything one way or the other, because we haven't ever seen him actually use Wayzz' power and transform. In fact, Wayzz' had advised Master Fu against transforming (but this was before Marinette learned his secret), so maybe his revelation to Marinette indicates that he's accepted that his days of using Wayzz' power are over. That doesn't mean Wayzz won't hang around and help him out in other ways, because they've been together for a long time. So even though we never saw similar conversations with Plagg, Nooroo, and Wayzz, it doesn't mean it isn't so. It's hard to have any kind of serious discussion with Plagg, but in Origins he does get concerned when Adrien transforms before he can finish explaining how the whole power deal works and tells him to wait, but it's too late and he's already absorbed into the black cat miraculous. Perhaps a more substantial explanation of ground rules occurred later that we didn't see, although we at least see him explain a little more to Adrien. Nooroo probably doesn't need to (or WANT to) lecture Gabriel about keeping his identity secret, because if Gabriel fails to do so, maybe it's a loophole by which Nooroo can escape his servitude.

      I have many more questions about Master Fu's whole role since leaving the temple, and about the temple itself...

      Wouldn't the Guardians build it in a remote and inaccessible location for secrecy? Why did Master Fu not return after the initial disaster at the temple in 170 years, to search for the missing spellbook, and Moth and Peacock Miraculous?

      Why would all three lost items be so easy for Gabriel to discover, if he's at the ruins of the temple by pure chance and isn't looking for anything in particular?

      Why would all three of them be found in the exact same spot in the temple's ruins (because if they're not all three in the exact same spot, then a chance discovery of any one will not result in finding all three -- unless he knows there are three to be found).

      What's Master Fu been doing in the last 170 years about recruiting and training new Guardians of the Order to help him out, and rebuilding the temple somewhere else in a more secure and secret location?

      I'll have more to comment on later, but I'll just leave you with those for now.

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    • When Master Fu says he thought the Moth Miraculous was "lost forever", it has a different quality than saying "I lost it somewhere while fleeing the destruction of the temple". It seems to imply that he knows where it was lost (or to whom it was lost), but it's now inaccessible, forever beyond his (or anyone's) grasp. Not like "I don't know where" but more like "it fell when I was crossing that rope bridge over the bottomless pit". That there's no point in even attempting to go back searching for it later, because he knows he won't find it. Everything about the story points not to a simple accidental careless loss of something during a hasty exist, but something far more permanent.

      Gabriel's chances of finding the book or the two Miraculous' by pure chance, simply by being in the right place (the temple ruins in Tibet) at the right time seem slim to none. He would need to seek those items out purposefully, with prior knowledge of their existence to acquire them.

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    • There is this one final thing about Master Fu that... when I thought about what it implies, it's been bugging me ever since, and I can't get it out of my mind. After Master Fu fled the destruction of the temple of the Guardians of the Order of the Miraculous, he did not immediately start over, and begin rebuilding a new, more secure and secret temple in another location, along with recruiting new trainees to become the next Guardians. He's had 170 years to make progress on that, but apparently has no plan to do so, since he's told Marinette he is the last Guardian. And since the Guardians were charged with protecting and distributing the Miraculous, when Master Fu dies, then there will be no more Miraculous heroes. Why?

      It can only be because the destruction of the temple and the circumstances surrounding that event made Master Fu decide that there is no longer any need for an Order of the Miraculous, or any Guardians to protect it. He must have made this decision in consultation with the Kwamis in his charge (absent Nooroo and Duusu, who were missing) -- and they must have come to the conclusion that the Kwamis' idea of helping humanity by the creation of the Miraculous is a failure. The idea was well-intentioned but flawed because the Kwamis lacked a true understanding of human nature (and that's why they required Guardians to choose users for the Miraculous). We need only look at poor Nooroo for the proof of that -- a small, frightened creature who only wanted to use his power to help... and look at him now, compelled to lend his power to fuel the evil machinations of Hawk Moth, for reasons unfathomable to him. Due to the destruction of the temple they concluded that as long as humans like Hawk Moth exist, the very existence of powerful objects like the Miraculous actually represents a greater threat to humankind than can ever be balanced by the existence of heroes who help humanity. Therefore, Master Fu has one last task in service to the Order to complete before his death -- the return of all the Miraculous. When he finally has them all in his possession, the Kwamis will be evacuated from all the Miraculous and they'll be destroyed (if even possible) or otherwise locked away forever so that they can never be misused for evil. That's why until recently Master Fu has been keeping his remaining Miraculous safely locked away -- only the discovery that the Peacock and Moth Miraculous are now known to be in Hawk Moth's possession causes him to grant Marinette and Adrien the Ladybug and Cat Noir Miraculous, for they will both help fight Hawk Moth while their Miraculous serve as bait to lure him out.

      The final battle to be waged between Miraculous-powered humans will take place in Paris, and Master Fu will choose new Miraculous users for as many superheroes as it takes to defeat both Hawk Moth and Le Paon. When those villains are finally defeated, and the Moth and Peacock Miraculous returned to him, then Master Fu will recall the remaining heroes to surrender their Miraculous as well, the Kwamis will separate and disperse, and the all the Miraculous will be destroyed or locked away forever. Master Fu can then die peacefully having accomplished his final duty. Humanity will have to learn to get along by itself without the Kwamis' help.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      I'm glad you brought up the "secret identity rule" because I've been thinking about that quite a bit, and trying to decide what it means when Tikki says it to Marinette about Ladybug's identity must remain secret. When Tikki says that, does the essence of what she's imparting to Marinette fall under the description of Good Advice, or Absolute Law? If it's only Tikki's opinion, then it's merely sage counsel (Good Advice) from a being who's been in existence since the beginning of creation and been an advisor to thousands of Ladybugs over millenia. Not keeping her secret would lead to complications in Marinette's life which would make Tikki's goal of helping humanity all the more difficult. If it's Absolute Law then it's an end-user agreement that's binding and has absolute consequences, which probably go into effect automatically -- by which it implies that Marinette can only remain Tikki's mistress and guarantee her cooperation and the lending of her magic power if she agrees to abide by it. That would mean that what Tikki is saying is that if she fails to keep her identity secret, she loses her power to transform into Ladybug. If the latter is true, it's hard to see how Tikki would have different rules of operation than other Kwamis, so then it's probably true of all Miraculous users relationships to their Kwamis. Even though we don't see any exchanges of that nature between Plagg and Adrien or Nooroo and Gabriel, we can note that Plagg reminds Adrien that nobody can know he exists -- which at least seems to imply keeping an essential secret of the same nature, and Cat Noir's behaviour in keeping his identity secret (even though he'd probably love to let Ladybug know) seems to reinforce that idea. Nooroo only cooperates with Gabriel in lending his powers under duress, and Gabriel always seems cautious about maintaining his secret, even to the point of foregoing his primary goal of collecting LB & CN's Miraculous when he akumatizes himself as the Collector. Why does he waste his new powers and lead the battle to a hasty conclusion where his identity can be discovered, thereby diverting suspicion of Hawk Moth's identity, and secondarily increasing the chances of recovering the spellbook? Why did he take no precautions before that to make his true identity as The Collector difficult to discover, prolonging the battle with L&C, and increasing his odds of attaining their Miraculous? It makes sense that he lets this opportunity slide by if the overriding concern is protection of Hawk Moth's secret identity over and above his personal goal of attaining those Miraculous... that would tend to reinforce the idea that it's part of the basic user agreement he must abide by if Nooroo is going to continue to obey him and lend him his powers as Hawk Moth. There is no such complementary agreement governing a Miraculous holder's discovery of different Miraculous holder's true identity, however -- we know that because Plagg questions Adrien's letting his opportunity to discover Ladybug's identity pass by. Master Fu has let Marinette in on the secret that he is the holder of the Turtle Miraculous, but that doesn't prove anything one way or the other, because we haven't ever seen him actually use Wayzz' power and transform. In fact, Wayzz' had advised Master Fu against transforming (but this was before Marinette learned his secret), so maybe his revelation to Marinette indicates that he's accepted that his days of using Wayzz' power are over. That doesn't mean Wayzz won't hang around and help him out in other ways, because they've been together for a long time. So even though we never saw similar conversations with Plagg, Nooroo, and Wayzz, it doesn't mean it isn't so. It's hard to have any kind of serious discussion with Plagg, but in Origins he does get concerned when Adrien transforms before he can finish explaining how the whole power deal works and tells him to wait, but it's too late and he's already absorbed into the black cat miraculous. Perhaps a more substantial explanation of ground rules occurred later that we didn't see, although we at least see him explain a little more to Adrien. Nooroo probably doesn't need to (or WANT to) lecture Gabriel about keeping his identity secret, because if Gabriel fails to do so, maybe it's a loophole by which Nooroo can escape his servitude.

      I have many more questions about Master Fu's whole role since leaving the temple, and about the temple itself...

      Wouldn't the Guardians build it in a remote and inaccessible location for secrecy? Why did Master Fu not return after the initial disaster at the temple in 170 years, to search for the missing spellbook, and Moth and Peacock Miraculous?

      Why would all three lost items be so easy for Gabriel to discover, if he's at the ruins of the temple by pure chance and isn't looking for anything in particular?

      Why would all three of them be found in the exact same spot in the temple's ruins (because if they're not all three in the exact same spot, then a chance discovery of any one will not result in finding all three -- unless he knows there are three to be found).

      What's Master Fu been doing in the last 170 years about recruiting and training new Guardians of the Order to help him out, and rebuilding the temple somewhere else in a more secure and secret location?

      I'll have more to comment on later, but I'll just leave you with those for now.

      I don't think it's the Absolute Law one, myself. I think Gabriel wishes to keep his identity a secret because it makes it easier on him if they don't know who he is. I think if it were Absolute Law, Cat Noir wouldn't be so cavalier during the interview, and we might have seen Plagg protest. Additionally, if using the Miraculous for "good" isn't Absolute Law, then I don't think anything is. Plus, Ladybug says on two occasions to Cat Noir that even they "must not" know each other's identity. Tikki has been telling her absolutely nobody can know who she is, but this isn't the case with past Ladybugs like Jeanne d'Arc. So something changed for her.

      That's an easy one- they weren't in the temple ruins, it's implied in the flashback. He's carrying the Miraculous Book with him in that flashback, so they were lost after that, just within the same day. It's hard to tell the time of day from the picture of when it happened. It could be the early morning or the night.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      When Master Fu says he thought the Moth Miraculous was "lost forever", it has a different quality than saying "I lost it somewhere while fleeing the destruction of the temple". It seems to imply that he knows where it was lost (or to whom it was lost), but it's now inaccessible, forever beyond his (or anyone's) grasp. Not like "I don't know where" but more like "it fell when I was crossing that rope bridge over the bottomless pit". That there's no point in even attempting to go back searching for it later, because he knows he won't find it. Everything about the story points not to a simple accidental careless loss of something during a hasty exist, but something far more permanent.

      Gabriel's chances of finding the book or the two Miraculous' by pure chance, simply by being in the right place (the temple ruins in Tibet) at the right time seem slim to none. He would need to seek those items out purposefully, with prior knowledge of their existence to acquire them.

      Exactly- they weren't lost with the temple, just on the same day. Master Fu never says they were left behind in the temple. It's even shown he's carrying the Book. So he got only so far with them before they got lost somehow. Considering how he's carrying the box, it might have opened and in trying to protect the Miraculouses from falling, he dropped the book at the same time, and the Moth, Peacock, and Book were lost. The Moth and Peacock are located right along the bottom edge of the Miraculous Box, and they're both small and very flat (and the Moth doesn't even sit right in its spot in the box), so they could fall out if the box was open just slightly and was jolted. The Bracelet wouldn't fall out because it isn't flat and the Fox Pendant probably almost did, but hit the top of the box after hitting the bottom edge of its spot in the box. He might have almost lost the Ladybug earrings, which are also small and round, but got the box shut before they fell out or he caught them, but not the other two, and the Book was lost at the same moment becaues he let go of the book trying to protect the Miraculouses. They fell somewhere he couldn't reach them or see them.

      It's possible Gabriel didn't find them himself, but came across them after someone else found them. A mountaineer might have found them (after all, a mountaineer would have more skill to get to places than Master Fu would), and decided to sell these random items he found while mountaineering. Gabriel, a fashion designer, took interest in the stuff and bought them for inspiration (or his wife did). This seems anticlimactic, though, but it's possible.

      Another idea is that Gabriel found out about the Miraculouses from someone else, maybe someone Le Paon works for, who wanted someone to get the Miraculouses for him, but Gabriel decided to do his own thing, which is why Le Paon has to come in. I can't see why else he'd have a "boss" unless she wants the Miraculouses for herself.

      It's possible they were found many years ago, and have passed from person to person without anyone actually trying to put them on (which is possible but unlikely), and they just ended up in some shop stall in Tibet, even though they may have started out in China.

      I don't think Gabriel went to the specific place the Miraculouses fell. I think he picked them up from someone else who would have the skill to get to that point of the mountain or dig it up, like a mountaineer or an archaeologist, or he bought them in a shop where they were obtained by someone who could get to them.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      There is this one final thing about Master Fu that... when I thought about what it implies, it's been bugging me ever since, and I can't get it out of my mind. After Master Fu fled the destruction of the temple of the Guardians of the Order of the Miraculous, he did not immediately start over, and begin rebuilding a new, more secure and secret temple in another location, along with recruiting new trainees to become the next Guardians. He's had 170 years to make progress on that, but apparently has no plan to do so, since he's told Marinette he is the last Guardian. And since the Guardians were charged with protecting and distributing the Miraculous, when Master Fu dies, then there will be no more Miraculous heroes. Why?

      It can only be because the destruction of the temple and the circumstances surrounding that event made Master Fu decide that there is no longer any need for an Order of the Miraculous, or any Guardians to protect it. He must have made this decision in consultation with the Kwamis in his charge (absent Nooroo and Duusu, who were missing) -- and they must have come to the conclusion that the Kwamis' idea of helping humanity by the creation of the Miraculous is a failure. The idea was well-intentioned but flawed because the Kwamis lacked a true understanding of human nature (and that's why they required Guardians to choose users for the Miraculous). We need only look at poor Nooroo for the proof of that -- a small, frightened creature who only wanted to use his power to help... and look at him now, compelled to lend his power to fuel the evil machinations of Hawk Moth, for reasons unfathomable to him. Due to the destruction of the temple they concluded that as long as humans like Hawk Moth exist, the very existence of powerful objects like the Miraculous actually represents a greater threat to humankind than can ever be balanced by the existence of heroes who help humanity. Therefore, Master Fu has one last task in service to the Order to complete before his death -- the return of all the Miraculous. When he finally has them all in his possession, the Kwamis will be evacuated from all the Miraculous and they'll be destroyed (if even possible) or otherwise locked away forever so that they can never be misused for evil. That's why until recently Master Fu has been keeping his remaining Miraculous safely locked away -- only the discovery that the Peacock and Moth Miraculous are now known to be in Hawk Moth's possession causes him to grant Marinette and Adrien the Ladybug and Cat Noir Miraculous, for they will both help fight Hawk Moth while their Miraculous serve as bait to lure him out.

      The final battle to be waged between Miraculous-powered humans will take place in Paris, and Master Fu will choose new Miraculous users for as many superheroes as it takes to defeat both Hawk Moth and Le Paon. When those villains are finally defeated, and the Moth and Peacock Miraculous returned to him, then Master Fu will recall the remaining heroes to surrender their Miraculous as well, the Kwamis will separate and disperse, and the all the Miraculous will be destroyed or locked away forever. Master Fu can then die peacefully having accomplished his final duty. Humanity will have to learn to get along by itself without the Kwamis' help.

      That's such a downer ending, though. I don't know if that's how it would work out in the end. Miraculouses I don't think are commonly used for evil. It has happened, but it's extremely rare. And he has no way of knowing if everyone will surrender their Miraculouses. I can't see the two kwamis we see most often agreeing to that.

      He might have not put the Order together again because he doesn't have all the Miraculouses and the Book, or maybe he doesn't have the know-how to create a new Order without the Book. He was a young trainee. I mean, I couldn't just go off and start a school just because I work at one, much less because I was a student at one.

      He might have decided over the years that the best people to know who a Miraculous goes to are Miraculous bearers themselves. He's supposedly going to have Marinette hand out Miraculouses, so I think she's going to take over the duty because he's going to die after giving the Turtle over to Carapace.

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    • That's such a downer ending, though. I don't know if that's how it would work out in the end. Miraculouses I don't think are commonly used for evil. It has happened, but it's extremely rare. And he has no way of knowing if everyone will surrender their Miraculouses. I can't see the two kwamis we see most often agreeing to that.

      He might have not put the Order together again because he doesn't have all the Miraculouses and the Book, or maybe he doesn't have the know-how to create a new Order without the Book. He was a young trainee. I mean, I couldn't just go off and start a school just because I work at one, much less because I was a student at one.

      He might have decided over the years that the best people to know who a Miraculous goes to are Miraculous bearers themselves. He's supposedly going to have Marinette hand out Miraculouses, so I think she's going to take over the duty because he's going to die after giving the Turtle over to Carapace.

      I know it's a downer ending. It would not be my preferred ending, either. I just can't see a lot of options, unless something about the rules under which the Kwamis operate currently changes. Master Fu has had 170 years to figure out a way to start over. The original Order of the Guardians had to start from scratch, as well. When Master Fu says he's the last Guardian... as of right now, all we know is that the Kwamis require the cooperation of the Guardians to carry out their goal of helping humanity. If they were capable of choosing their own masters, there would never have been a need for Guardians, except as agents to physically transport a Miraculous from one chosen user to the next (chosen by the Kwamis themselves, that is). Unless something changes about the mechanics of the magical key phrase triggering the Kwamis conversion to pure magic force and absorption into the Miraculous, so that when Gabriel holds the Moth Miraculous and says "Dark Wings Rise!" nothing happens, except that Nooroo says "No. I don't trust you, Gabriel... and I won't allow my power to be used for evil ends!" or when Adrien says "Claws Out!" before Plagg is ready, he says "I told you to wait, Adrien. I'm not ready to go into that thing yet. I still haven't finished explaining how it works to you."

      And if "specially trained for that purpose" Guardians like Master Fu are capable of making a mistake in choosing a user, then it's probably an even worse idea to burden a rookie superhero with that same responsibility, because it's beyond their wisdom. Of course it's also Master Fu's duty to inform Marinette or another hero soon with instructions about what to do if he were to die before the Moth and Peacock Miraculous are returned to him, or write out the instructions and have Wayzz deliver them after his death.

      I guess there's a possibility that Master Fu is lying to Marinette (although I can't think of a valid reason that he'd do so), and there's also the possibility that Master Fu is unaware of the existence of other Guardians and the Kwamis in their charge -- ones who also survived the destruction of the temple, OR ones who existed prior to that completely unbeknownst to him, at another temple in another secret location. Perhaps a separate order of Kwamis and their Miraculous based on the Chinese Zodiac, another idea which has been hinted at.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      I know it's a downer ending. It would not be my preferred ending, either. I just can't see a lot of options, unless something about the rules under which the Kwamis operate currently changes. Master Fu has had 170 years to figure out a way to start over. When Master Fu says he's the last Guardian... as of right now, all we know is that the Kwamis require the cooperation of the Guardians to carry out their goal of helping humanity. If they were capable of choosing their own masters, there would never have been a need for Guardians, except as agents to physically transport a Miraculous from one chosen user to the next (chosen by the Kwamis themselves, that is). Unless something changes about the mechanics of the magical key phrase triggering the Kwamis conversion to pure magic force and absorption into the Miraculous, so that when Gabriel holds the Moth Miraculous and says "Dark Wings Rise!" nothing happens, except that Nooroo says "No. I don't trust you, Gabriel... and I won't allow my power to be used for evil ends!" or when Adrien says "Claws Out!" before Plagg is ready, he says "I told you to wait, Adrien. I'm not ready to go into that thing yet. I still haven't finished explaining how it works to you."

      And if "specially trained for that purpose" Guardians like Master Fu are capable of making a mistake in choosing a user, then it's probably an even worse idea to burden a rookie superhero with that same responsibility, because it's beyond their wisdom. Of course it's also Master Fu's duty to inform Marinette or another hero soon with instructions about what to do if he were to die before the Moth and Peacock Miraculous are returned to him, or write out the instructions and have Wayzz deliver them after his death.

      I guess there's a possibility that Master Fu is lying to Marinette (although I can't think of a valid reason that he'd do so), and there's also the possibility that Master Fu is unaware of the existence of other Guardians and the Kwamis in their charge -- ones who also survived the destruction of the temple, OR ones who existed prior to that completely unbeknownst to him, at another temple in another secret location. Perhaps a separate order of Kwamis and their Miraculous based on the Chinese Zodiac, another idea which has been hinted at.

      Well, we don't know how the Guardians work or why they existed or when they came to be. They might have been ultimately unnecessary, especially if they came to be alongside the Miraculouses. They guarded them, but I'd bet my book-accurate Ravenclaw uniform they weren't all in charge of distributing them, but only certain high members of the Order were, like the two men in the flashback. It'd be pretty foolish if anyone in the Order can hand out Miraculouses.

      Kwamis might have some say, we don't actually know. They could, hypothetically, choose someone close to their current holder (someone they see often, a young family member, a student, a neighbour) to be their next bearer if they think they can handle it. Tikki and Plagg already knew Marinette and Adrien's names, so they might have had some say in the matter, too. Tikki was very adamant about Marinette, to the point she didn't even care about Marinette's concerns about being Ladybug, and she didn't tell Marinette how to detransform. So while not with the same kwami, the road ran both ways for the transformation thing. Tikki didn't stop to really consider Marinette's feelings, and Adrien dove right in without waiting for Plagg to finish explaining, though for all Adrien knew, Plagg was done, because Plagg tells him without prompting. His "wait" doesn't come until after Adrien's already said it. So that was 100% Plagg's fault. Nooroo's different, I can't argue against that. 

      Kwamis likely knew what they were getting into when they signed up to become part of a Miraculous, but we can't say for sure. Like how a soldier obeys orders from their direct superior, kwamis go into their Miraculouses at their trigger phrase (which I'm still not convinced that's Nooroo's real transformation phrase). Plagg was the one at fault because, like I said, he just told Adrien the transformation phrase because he was too busy playing to explain things in the right order, and Adrien did pay the price for his enthusaism and not waiting for Plagg to explain things. Nooroo says that they aren't meant to be used for evil, so there might be some kind of failsafe that'll kick in, but hasn't yet. Nooroo's Miraculous might lose its power. I agree there's a flaw and a very serious one at that (as kwamis are essentaily slaves, though more in line with the House Elve variant than real world ones) there for a reason for all we know. It could be for the safety of the kwami or the human. It could be something they couldn't work out of the Miraculous and have it still work, so it's a side-effect.

      Master Fu might not have yet been trained for that before the Order was destroyed. I doubt they'd start training them on how to distribue Miraculouses unless they're of a certain ranking or age or something, because there are I think someone counted 70 or 80 Guardians being trained, meaning there was well over a hundred of them. Surely not all of them were trained in distribution, but only some were. So the fact that he's only made one mistake is most impressive.

      I certainly hope other Guardians survived- there were rather a lot of them, so it's entirely possible. Astruc has hinted there could be other Miraculous boxes (as if 18 Miraculouses wasn't more than enough, I guess), so it's also possible that while the Zodiac seems to be with the seven main Miraculouses we see (as the Box has space for them all and it's much to large to house just the seven), there are other Miraculouses around created by someone else possibly, but they don't have an Order. I really hope the Zodiac ones aren't in Paris though, but are all around the world.

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    • Of course there could never be any more Guardians responsible for choosing users at any given time than there were Miraculous that currently needed to be placed with new users. That seems like a given. Yet it seems like all of them should have received the same basic training in this regard, with the eldest and most experienced handling the actual job at any given time -- perhaps even with some being "specialists" whose knowledge of the right kind of user suitable for a particular Miraculous would always be preferred. Still, any Guardian may die at any given time, so there must be one of lesser rank preparing to assume that responsibility. A heirarchical system of in-training and experienced Guardians. Still, the basic training would prepare any one of them to be better at that job than any average person who was not a Guardian, especially a younger person not having a lot of accumulated life experience. It's just a recipe for more mistakes, and more opportunities for the Kwamis' powers to be mis-used against their intentions in creating the Miraculous. It's my understanding that the Miraculous were created jointly by the Kwamis and the first prototypical Guardians after they became aware of them (maybe through meditation? I don't know) or the Kwamis chose which humans to reveal themselves to, and that in communication together with all the known Kwamis, the first Guardians developed a plan to facilitate the Kwamis stated desire to use their powers to help humanity, which began by the creation of a Miraculous specifically for each Kwami.

      My point about the Miraculous and the Kwamis was that the key phrase acts automatically, like flipping a light switch. It's not a summons to action like "Let's Go!" in which the Kwami has any voluntary choice. That has to be a necessary condition which was determined at the time the Miraculous were created, because it takes only the most elementary foresight to realize that compulsory servitude creates a condition conducive to mis-use. Yet the Kwamis must have agreed to it anyway, so it probably can't be changed by anything in the spellbook.

      Why I think the Kwamis needed the Guardians' expertise to choose users is that the Kwamis themselves aren't human, and at their most basic they are archetypal, conceptual beings -- what personality traits they've acquired over thousands of years have been unconsciously absorbed by their associations with their former users. They have none of the potential negativity that all humans have, they can't easily recognize trickery, falsehood, and deception, and they're never suspicious or presume the worst in anyone. In addition to that, even among basically decent and honest humans, there are specific people whose individual qualities align most perfectly with any specific Kwami's powers, and they're not good at distinguishing those among humans without careful prolonged study and observation. This is where the Guardians would have come in, because in addition to being trained as excellent judges of character, they also had the ability to just... "read a person's aura", I guess you could say. They could quickly tell a person's basic character, but also just immediately recognize that "she's an excellent Ladybug type" or whatever -- part of that having to do with their intimate familiarity with the Kwamis themselves. I think Origins supports that interpretation of the Guardians' training (and experience, of course) in that it doesn't show Master Fu skulking around, surreptitiously observing Marinette and Adrien. He doesn't even have to exchange more than a few words in conversation with them. He just decides "it's time" and then goes out with his senses focused on the type of person he's looking for to match a specific Kwami, and when he meets one, it's a quick decision.

      If Master Fu were somehow able to magically transfer his perceptual skills to Marinette and Adrien, then the the next time they saw each other, they couldn't fail to recognize the whole person, in either of their identities, and immediately perceive their alter ego in them. What's confusing their true perceptions right now is that when they look at each other, they see only what they want to see. What Marinette wants to see in Adrien is different than what she wants to see in Cat Noir, and what Adrien wants to see in Ladybug is different from what he wants to see in Marinette. Their attention is also diverted by their preconceived notions -- as a famous male model, Marinette's perception of Adrien is that he's "perfect" and that's his attraction for her, and as a girl of mystery, Ladybug gains an additional attraction for Adrien in his perception -- the mask and costume makes her more attractive.

      That also means that right now, they would not be above-average at choosing new Miraculous holders, because while they're fair judges of character, both of them tend only to want to see the good in people, unless it's glaringly obvious otherwise. They also can't see the total person, only the aspects that they're looking for, or the conglomeration of characteristics that seem most obvious and consistent with each other. SO if what they're looking for is a new Miraculous holder, then they'll tend to see only the qualities in a person that match that desire, and not the ones that don't. Master Fu, on the other hand... if he were to send Marinette or Adrien (as they are right now) out to choose someone as a new Miraculous user, would be able to look their choice over and instantly see whether they'd succeeded or failed in choosing. It's unlikely that he'd tell them if they made the wrong choice, because he knows beforehand when he assigns them the task what their limitations are.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Of course there could never be any more Guardians responsible for choosing users at any given time than there were Miraculous that currently needed to be placed with new users. That seems like a given. Yet it seems like all of them should have received the same basic training in this regard, with the eldest and most experienced handling the actual job at any given time -- perhaps even with some being "specialists" whose knowledge of the right kind of user suitable for a particular Miraculous would always be preferred. Still, any Guardian may die at any given time, so there must be one of lesser rank preparing to assume that responsibility. A heirarchical system of in-training and experienced Guardians. Still, the basic training would prepare any one of them to be better at that job than any average person who was not a Guardian, especially a younger person not having a lot of accumulated life experience. It's just a recipe for more mistakes, and more opportunities for the Kwamis' powers to be mis-used against their intentions in creating the Miraculous. It's my understanding that the Miraculous were created jointly by the Kwamis and the first prototypical Guardians after they became aware of them (maybe through meditation? I don't know) or the Kwamis chose which humans to reveal themselves to, and that in communication together with all the known Kwamis, the first Guardians developed a plan to facilitate the Kwamis stated desire to use their powers to help humanity, which began by the creation of a Miraculous specifically for each Kwami.

      My point about the Miraculous and the Kwamis was that the key phrase acts automatically, like flipping a light switch. It's not a summons to action like "Let's Go!" in which the Kwami has any voluntary choice. That has to be a necessary condition which was determined at the time the Miraculous were created, because it takes only the most elementary foresight to realize that compulsory servitude creates a condition conducive to mis-use. Yet the Kwamis must have agreed to it anyway, so it probably can't be changed by anything in the spellbook.

      Why I think the Kwamis needed the Guardians' expertise to choose users is that the Kwamis themselves aren't human, and at their most basic they are archetypal, conceptual beings -- what personality traits they've acquired over thousands of years have been unconsciously absorbed by their associations with their former users. They have none of the potential negativity that all humans have, they can't easily recognize trickery, falsehood, and deception, and they're never suspicious or presume the worst in anyone. In addition to that, even among basically decent and honest humans, there are specific people whose individual qualities align most perfectly with any specific Kwami's powers, and they're not good at distinguishing those among humans without careful prolonged study and observation. This is where the Guardians would have come in, because in addition to being trained as excellent judges of character, they also had the ability to just... "read a person's aura", I guess you could say. They could quickly tell a person's basic character, but also just immediately recognize that "she's an excellent Ladybug type" or whatever -- part of that having to do with their intimate familiarity with the Kwamis themselves. I think Origins supports that interpretation of the Guardians' training (and experience, of course) in that it doesn't show Master Fu skulking around, surreptitiously observing Marinette and Adrien. He doesn't even have to exchange more than a few words in conversation with them. He just decides "it's time" and then goes out with his senses focused on the type of person he's looking for to match a specific Kwami, and when he meets one, it's a quick decision.

      If Master Fu were somehow able to magically transfer his perceptual skills to Marinette and Adrien, then the the next time they saw each other, they couldn't fail to recognize the whole person, in either of their identities, and immediately perceive their alter ego in them. What's confusing their true perceptions right now is that when they look at each other, they see only what they want to see. What Marinette wants to see in Adrien is different than what she wants to see in Cat Noir, and what Adrien wants to see in Ladybug is different from what he wants to see in Marinette. Their attention is also diverted by their preconceived notions -- as a famous male model, Marinette's perception of Adrien is that he's "perfect" and that's his attraction for her, and as a girl of mystery, Ladybug gains an additional attraction for Adrien in his perception -- the mask and costume makes her more attractive.

      That also means that right now, they would not be above-average at choosing new Miraculous holders, because while they're fair judges of character, both of them tend only to want to see the good in people, unless it's glaringly obvious otherwise. They also can't see the total person, only the aspects that they're looking for, or the conglomeration of characteristics that seem most obvious and consistent with each other. SO if what they're looking for is a new Miraculous holder, then they'll tend to see only the qualities in a person that match that desire, and not the ones that don't. Master Fu, on the other hand... if he were to send Marinette or Adrien (as they are right now) out to choose someone as a new Miraculous user, would be able to look their choice over and instantly see whether they'd succeeded or failed in choosing. It's unlikely that he'd tell them if they made the wrong choice, because he knows beforehand when he assigns them the task what their limitations are.

      Maybe that was the problem- they made too many mistakes and that finally got them destroyed. But for all we know, most people protected the temple and the Miraculouses, while handing them out was a specific job given to less than five people no matter how many Miraculouses there were and those people did not put themselves out where they could be attacked if the temple was attacked. The less people who know, the safer the Miraculouses are. It's also possible that the people are extremely arrogant over the years and only wanted high-ranking members to know anything about distribution, so if you weren't high-ranking or on your way to be high-ranking, you simply weren't trained for it. If that book has information about who should be able to handle the Miraculouses and who shouldn't, and Master Fu was never even allowed to look at it, then he wasn't being trained for the distribution.

      I understood your point. I even said what you were indirectly saying- they are slaves to their Miraculouses. 

      I disagree- Tikki says Lila is the best liar she's ever seen and she can tell Chloe is a bad person, she doesn't try and insist otherwise to Marinette. She even talks about it unprompted in "Guitar Villain", where she expresses annoyance at Chloe's talking in the third person. She also calls out Marinette's bad behaviour and disapproves of her jealousy. They can tell when someone make bad choices. Nooroo can tell Hawk Moth is a bad person, his body language suggests he's already afraid of him before Hawk Moth says anything about supervillains. They can recognise negative qualities. I think kwamis could have the potential to decide for themselves. They might feel a connection to them. For all we know, Tikki and Plagg chose Adrien and Marinette through their Miraculouses because they did know their names without being told. This is also supported in Origins, because he holds up the box and looks at it, so it might have sent him some kind of signal. We don't know how it works. It's entirely possible the Order started out as something completely different before they took total control over how Miraculouses were handed out. They might have originally been there to guard and nothing more, but started taking on the role of distributor down the line, and started giving the Miraculouses to people who followed a trend in what they saw from other chosen ones or who matched with the writings in the book.

      Well, Adrien does want to know who Ladybug is. His interest in her is her bravery and strong devotion to her positon. He's so blinded by her he doesn't notice the similarities between her and Marinette. Though, like I've said before, I think he might know who she is or have an idea of it. At the very least he wants to get to know Marinette better all of a sudden. With Marinette, it seems she thinks he's perfect because Adrien has yet to show her otherwise. Most of his flaws stand out when he's being Cat Noir, and even then he hesitates to show them when she's around and tries to hide them. Adrien pushes the perfect image pretty hard, so she's seeing what she's being given from him. She's also more inclined to say he could be Hawk Moth than Cat Noir.

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