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  • It is my speculation that Nathalie is both the Peacock Miraculous holder AND Mrs. Agreste. Something tragic happened some years ago and she lost her heart/memories, hence her name: Sancoeur. Gabriel Agreste, Le Papillion, believes he can restore her with the power of the black cat and ladybug miraculouses. In the meantime she acts according to instinct to look after her husband and son, but cannot feel anything--or her feelings are strongly suppressed. When she has her miraculous she becomes insane or unstable, and so he took it from her and keeps it behind her portrait.

    If you observe their features, you will find she has the same facial structure (especially nose/bridge, chin). The prime differences are hair color and eye color, with the minimal difference of having her hair pulled back into a bun and parted in the opposite direction. The former factors could be magically altered, or just hair dye and colored contact lenses. The change in hair and use of glasses among these other factors could be Gabriel's attempts to hide her true identity from the public. Given his high publicity, it would be dangerous for people to speculate. Her eyes do not fit perfectly, but that is because they are in a placid, drooping melancholy, whereas Mrs. Agreste's eyes were bright and full.

    Also, the portrait of Mrs. Agreste has peacock eye-like designs all over her body, though they are subdued by the abstract art style. If you go through the gallery and compare their features you will certainly perceive resemblances. Gabriel notes that his wife was sensistive, while Nathalie is cold. Also, the name Nathalie means "born on Christmas." Given that the Agreste household does not celebrate Christmas and Adrian has a specific angst associated with that holiday, the incident may have coincided with Christmas. Notice in the portrait how Mrs. Agreste is covered in pearl-like beads. Nathalie wears earings of this same nature.

    It's just an idea, but I think it fits really well. The heartless Mrs. Agreste is sitting right under our noses this whole time. Maybe Adrien's allergy to feathers is actually psychosomatic.

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    Notice peacock eye designs.

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    Notice the peacock weilder's physical resemblance to Nathalie and Mrs. Agreste.

    Duusu Eyes Open

    Eyes nearly fully open.

    Side Profile Nathalie

    Side profile

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    • Like I said, I don't have trouble believing this.

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    • There are better pictures available of Mrs. Agreste, and honestly, I don't see it. Mrs Agreste's eyes, nose and chin are all shaped differently, and she has green eyes like Adrien's, not blue. And would a disguise fool Adrien into thinking his mother was missing? I just can't buy it.

      Something about Nathalie just seems so sad that I can't help but want to know her backstory. I think she might be "the other woman" and secretly in love with Gabriel, or at least, secretly FORMERLY in love with Gabriel -- or to put it another way, secretly in love with Gabriel's former self before the events which resulted in Mrs. Agreste's disappearance. She always seems like she's got the weight of the world on her shoulders, and something about her distant, far-away melancholy makes me think that this is not the life she ever imagined for herself.

      It's true that I should dislike her for her brusque treatment of Marinette, and her worse theft and misrepresentation of Mari's gift as having come from Gabriel, but she seems to be under a lot of undue stress in trying to please her boss. And on other occasions, she's tried to take Adrien's side -- advising Gabriel that it might be better for Adrien if Mr. Agreste were to allow him to attend public school, and trying to tell him that Adrien deserves a family Christmas with his father.

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    • I agree there is something peculiar about Nathalie (we have only ever seen her as business professional and occasionally a little sad for Adrien), but I'm not sure if she could even plausibly be Mrs Agreste, unless Nathalie is an akumatised version and she still has some sense of self, like Nathaniel did, but she's not wholly there. It would explain her appearance changes (and you could I guess argue that her hair is dark and her eyes are blue because the "light" was taken from her, and light is usually symbolised with the colour yellow, and black is the only natural hair colour that isn't related to the colour yellow, while taking yellow from green makes blue) but it seems a bit far-fetched to me. It's not one I can really just say "this doesn't work" because it doesn't really contradict any facts that can't be explained, it just seems a little too out there.

      I would love to see Nathalie outside her work, though, and see what she's like.

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    • I wonder if Nathalie's secret is a burden of guilt she's carrying -- knowledge of the events of Mrs. Agreste's disappearance, or even a more active involvement in those events -- like Nathalie is the one responsible for Mrs. Agreste's disappearance because she betrayed her, in an attempt to remove her from the picture so she could pursue Gabriel's love herself -- and she had no idea of the change which would come over him after his wife's disappearance.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      I wonder if Nathalie's secret is a burden of guilt she's carrying -- knowledge of the events of Mrs. Agreste's disappearance, or even a more active involvement in those events -- like Nathalie is the one responsible for Mrs. Agreste's disappearance because she betrayed her, in an attempt to remove her from the picture so she could pursue Gabriel's love herself -- and she had no idea of the change which would come over him after his wife's disappearance.

      Hm, could be. I like to think Nathalie and Mrs Agreste were friends, and one of them met Gabriel through the other, probably Mrs Agreste met him through Nathalie. I'd never really considered she might be in love with him, since he's so cold and prickly, or that Nathalie could have been involved in why Mrs Agreste disappeared, but I did suspect she knew a little about it, since my theory is that she's not actually missing and Gabriel knows where she is but Mrs Agreste is involved in something to do with the Miraculouses in Tibet.

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    • Nathalie seems cold and distant, it's true. I've barely ever seen her smile once (I think it was the Christmas episode), and even then it looks a little strange and off-kilter. It's like just behind that one fleeting smile, all that's left of her is a sad little broken doll, living with the certain knowledge that true happiness is now and forever beyond her reach. After watching her expressions, I think "emotionally detached" or "melancholy" would be a better description. She hides an empty hole where her heart once was behind the facade of a professional demeanor, having become exactly what Gabriel requires her to be -- a go-between or interlocutor between Gabriel himself and the rest of the world.

      I think there was a time when Nathalie was more alive and hopeful. I don't think she ever foresaw the change that would be wrought in Gabriel Agreste after the disappearance of his wife.

      The exact meaning of her name, "sancoeur", could have various different shades of meaning in translation -- "heartless", "without (a) heart", "missing (her) heart", or even, interpreted a little more liberally, "empty heart".

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    • As for Mrs. Agreste, I'm imagining that she was once a supermodel and one of Gabriel's discoveries, or at least they worked together in the fashion industry.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      As for Mrs. Agreste, I'm imagining that she was once a supermodel and one of Gabriel's discoveries, or at least they worked together in the fashion industry.

      Everyone says she probably was a supermodel and she probably was, but I like to think she might have been something else, but I'm not sure what. Even if she was one, that doesn't mean she didn't meet Gabriel through Nathalie, Gabriel's assistant.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Nathalie seems cold and distant, it's true. I've barely ever seen her smile once (I think it was the Christmas episode), and even then it looks a little strange and off-kilter. It's like just behind that one fleeting smile, all that's left of her is a sad little broken doll, living with the certain knowledge that true happiness is now and forever beyond her reach. After watching her expressions, I think "emotionally detached" or "melancholy" would be a better description. She hides an empty hole where her heart once was behind the facade of a professional demeanor, having become exactly what Gabriel requires her to be -- a go-between or interlocutor between Gabriel himself and the rest of the world.

      The exact meaning of her name, "sancoeur", could have various different shades of meaning in translation -- "heartless", "without (a) heart", "missing (her) heart", or even, interpreted a little more liberally, "empty heart".

      Mh. Nathalie is an odd one, to be sure, and I really want to know more about her. She doesn't seem to have much of a personal life. She's kinda robotic. I think the only true emotions we really see from her are the ones directed towards Adrien's situation, which are pity and sadness. But even so, there is something very off about her, so I guess it wouldn't be too hard to believe something is wrong with her, like she's incapable of feeling more than the ghost of an emotion.

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    • The one emotion she does seem to show a little of is fear -- it almost seems like she's living with a constant low-level fear of displeasing Mr. Agreste, which is understandable given how he treats her. But maybe, just maybe, there's more to it than that? Maybe that low-level fear combined with her otherwise emotional disconnection is an indicator that she's actually aware that Gabriel is Hawk Moth?

      If Nathalie becomes too emotionally worked-up, she risks becoming exactly the sort of person that Hawk Moth preys upon to akumatize. While that might not be a very realistic fear on the face of things, since akumatizing her would be counterproductive to Mr. Agreste's purposes (and thus, we should assume, to Hawk Moth's as well), IF she were aware of his secret it would be hard NOT to live in constant fear of expressing her emotions.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      The one emotion she does seem to show a little of is fear -- it almost seems like she's living with a constant low-level fear of displeasing Mr. Agreste, which is understandable given how he treats her. But maybe, just maybe, there's more to it than that? Maybe that low-level fear combined with her otherwise emotional disconnection is an indicator that she's actually aware that Gabriel is Hawk Moth?

      If Nathalie becomes too emotionally worked-up, she risks becoming exactly the sort of person that Hawk Moth preys upon to akumatize. While that might not be a very realistic fear on the face of things, since akumatizing her would be counterproductive to Mr. Agreste's purposes (and thus, we should assume, to Hawk Moth's as well), IF she were aware of his secret it would be hard NOT to live in constant fear of expressing her emotions.

      Hm, that is true, but akumatising her wouldn't really be counterproductive, since he knows Nathalie can get stuff done. If she is aware, wouldn't she know that suppressing emotion is the way Hawk Moth finds victims? His victims never act out on their emotional upset, they try and keep it in. This is the only possible reason for why Marinette has never been akuamtised despite her incredibly powerful jealousy.

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    • Thearomalady wrote:
      Hm, that is true, but akumatising her wouldn't really be counterproductive, since he knows Nathalie can get stuff done. If she is aware, wouldn't she know that suppressing emotion is the way Hawk Moth finds victims? His victims never act out on their emotional upset, they try and keep it in. This is the only possible reason for why Marinette has never been akuamtised despite her incredibly powerful jealousy.


      The way I'm picturing it is this. What exactly ARE Hawk Moth's powers anyway? I mean if you had to define him as some kind of subset. He's a psychic vampire. Any negative emotions you might be feeling show up on his radar sweep and give him access to get his psychic hooks into you. Once that happens, he can manipulate your psyche almost like a marionette using his emotional tethers.

      And what then? There's nowhere you can go and no place to run that's far enough once he's tasted your negative energies. He can feed off them, amplify them, and then use them to infuse that negative energy into his little akumas. So if he's your boss, does that mean you're safe and exempt from his emotional tampering, because you're more valuable to him in his other identity for more mundane purposes? Maybe, but could you ever be absolutely sure of that? What if he decides that your value as an emotional fuel source outweighs whatever practical value you might have to him as an employee? He can always hire another executive assistant/major domo. Your only option then is to cut yourself off from your emotions. You might think it's only negative emotions that represent a danger to your well-being, but can you really live under those oppressive conditions and feel any real sponteneity or joy? I doubt it. You're aware that as Gabriel Agreste he demands absolute control over, and obedience from, everyone around him -- nay, even perfection ("Isn't he perfect?" he says of his son, Adrien). A living nightmare.

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    • Positronic wrote:

      The way I'm picturing it is this. What exactly ARE Hawk Moth's powers anyway? I mean if you had to define him as some kind of subset. He's a psychic vampire. Any negative emotions you might be feeling show up on his radar sweep and give him access to get his psychic hooks into you. Once that happens, he can manipulate your psyche almost like a marionette using his emotional tethers.

      And what then? There's nowhere you can go and no place to run that's far enough once he's tasted your negative energies. He can feed off them, amplify them, and then use them to infuse that negative energy into his little akumas. So if he's your boss, does that mean you're safe and exempt from his emotional tampering, because you're more valuable to him in his other identity for more mundane purposes? Maybe, but could you ever be absolutely sure of that? What if he decides that your value as an emotional fuel source outweighs whatever practical value you might have to him as an employee? He can always hire another executive assistant/major domo. Your only option then is to cut yourself off from your emotions. You might think it's only negative emotions that represent a danger to your well-being, but can you really live under those oppressive conditions and feel any real sponteneity or joy? I doubt it. You're aware that as Gabriel Agreste he demands absolute control over, and obedience from, everyone around him -- nay, even perfection ("Isn't he perfect?" he says of his son, Adrien). A living nightmare.

      That kinda contradicts what we've seen or heard, though. The way you're thinking it, there should be a lot more akumatisations than there are, but there's barely 30 that get mentioned or shown or implied, most of them being concentrated in May. Hawk Moth seems to only detect people when their emotions are much stronger than normal- Astruc has stated Adrien isn't easy to have akumatised, since he's so used to being disappointed. That's likely why Hawk Moth's never tried to akumatise someone with depression or PTSD or anger problems. It's why he doesn't akumatise Chloe or Sabrina earlier than May, even though they apparently regularly fight- Chloe didn't forgive Sabrina this one time and made the wound deeper, and Chloe has never experienced disappointment in someone she idolises before (in part because she seems to have no one she idolises except Ladybug). It's why he never akumatised the Mayor no matter how angry he got. Hawk Moth detects irregularities in someone's emotions, not just negative emotions. Otherwise he'd be doing a lot more akumatisations and Ladybug and Cat Noir wouldn't have a single break. So if you cut yourself off from your feelings, then any feeling you have, fear included, would be detected by him.

      At least, that's how I see it, based on what we've seen in the show and according to Astruc's comment about why Adrien isn't easy to akumatise.

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    • My observation has been that Hawk Moth could pick any number of angry/frustrated people out of the millions who inhabit Paris, but he doesn't. It seems to have less to do with the quality of their emotional responses, which often arise out of everyday conflicts, and more to do with times and proximities of opportunity -- and most importantly, people who are known to, and have some emotional connection (however slight) with Marinette Dupain-Cheng and/or Adrien Agreste. Every single akumatized person first has to be someone whom one of them is aware of. Since Hawk Moth's goal is to acquire Ladybug and Cat Noir's miraculouses, there needs to be a pawn available which is connected to one of them in some way. Otherwise how could Hawk Moth, purely by random chance, be choosing so many pawns to akumatize from College Francoise Dupont? It's statistically impossible -- and that of course implies that Hawk Moth is aware of who Ladybug and Cat Noir really are. The other thing to question here is -- why doesn't he pick out a complete stranger to them? If they have no clue as to the prior identity of the akumatized pawn, then they'll also have no possible chance of discovering what is the source of the villain's emotional trauma, and if they can't figure that out, then they would have no chance of discovering which object contains the villain's akuma and destroying it. That's what Hawk Moth should attempt to do, if he wants to succeed -- but he doesn't, so for SOME reason, it seems like the pawns must need to have an emotional connection of some sort to our heroes.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      My observation has been that Hawk Moth could pick any number of angry/frustrated people out of the millions who inhabit Paris, but he doesn't. It seems to have less to do with the quality of their emotional responses, which often arise out of everyday conflicts, and more to do with times and proximities of opportunity -- and most importantly, people who are known to, and have some emotional connection (however slight) with Marinette Dupain-Cheng and/or Adrien Agreste. Every single akumatized person first has to be someone whom one of them is aware of. Since Hawk Moth's goal is to acquire Ladybug and Cat Noir's miraculouses, there needs to be a pawn available which is connected to one of them in some way. Otherwise how could Hawk Moth, purely by random chance, be choosing so many pawns to akumatize from College Francoise Dupont? It's statistically impossible -- and that of course implies that Hawk Moth is aware of who Ladybug and Cat Noir really are.

      Because he's not choosing them, he's going with what he's presented with. He's using what his empathy picks up on. Notice how he rarely goes actively looking for people, but he just finds them. The only time I can distinctly remember him actively looking for one was when he was looking into "The Challenge", knowing he'd find someone upset about losing a contest. He even made the situation possible by humiliating Simon on national TV. He also purpolsely upset Nino in order to create an akuma. Vincent Aza, like Simon, has zero connection to the leads aside from merely seeing them once. Hawk Moth had absolutely no reason to target Vincent, especially when there's a irate Jagged or a peeved Alya there to target instead, or a nervous Andre. So he had to have targeted Vincent because that was the person whose emotions tripped a wire. Neither of them had a real connection to Theo, either, aside from Cat Noir's brief conversation with him. We also have zero evidence that they have connections to Jean Duparc, who was akumatised prior to the start of "Princess Fragrance". Neither of them had even met Otis (that we know of) before he was akumatised into Animan.

      To date we've had five people humiliated on or by national television (Aurore, D'Argencourt, Simon, Jagged, and Cheng Shifu), twelve people who were heartbroken in either love or by denying them their dreams (Mr Ramier, Theo, Roger, Jalil, Kim, Fred Haprele, Rose, Ivan, Vincent, Juleka, Lila, and Max), two very shy people who were embarrassed in front of their entire class (Mylene and Nathaniel), four people who were accused of something they didn't do (Manon, Alya, Chloe, and Santa), leaving you with I think just Alix, Otis, and Nino. The only ones who I would say had an everyday conflict was Otis, who was dealing with a heckler, and Jagged, who should be used to critcism as a celebrity. It's not everyday you're on national TV, getting your dreams dashed, having your heart smashed, accused of something you didn't actually do, or humiliated in front of your entire class. It's not every day you break a family heirloom or get told you can't throw your best friend a birthday party while being told in the same breath you can't hang out with your best friend again. ANd you could argue that Nino fits under "accused of something" since he's accused of being a bad influence on Adrien.

      Hawk Moth manufactured Simon and Nino's situations. Notice how he doesn't say a word about Nino in "Simon Says", even though "The Bubbler" is an early episode, based on how Marinette forgot about her 5-minute timer and how Adrien skips out on his duty. He wasn't serious, he was just trying to create a situation where he could have an akuma. If he could akumatise anyone based on small emotional downs, he could easily akumatise Marinette's parents or the teachers.

      It's only statistically impossible if you insist that he's picking people. If he's not picking people, it's not so insane that he's gotten so many people from the school. Those kids go through a lot, at least for children their age, where they are at their most dramatic and emotional because they're still suffering puberty.

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    • No, it's statistically impossible if the emotional angst is purely generated by random human interactions among the citizens of Paris. Why never any kids from other schools? Do those kids never have problems? Why is there never more than 2 degrees of seperation from Marinette, to her close circle of friends, to her friends' parents, to the akumatized? In other words it's ALWAYS someone who is NOT a total stranger, and statistically, IF Hawk Moth is simply sensing people with emotional anguish in Paris, that should not be. Even when the akumatized aren't people Marinette has known for any length of time, it's always someone that she or one of her close friends seems to have met just recently or that same day. If Hawk Moth is simply taking these people as their situations arise, then 98% of them should be from here, there, and everywhere in Paris, that are "completely out of the blue" and have never crossed paths with anyone Marinette knows personally. Someone within Marinette's close circle of friends and classmates (or their parents) has always encountered Hawk Moth's pawn BEFORE he is akumatized -- that is, if the akumatized isn't ONE of Marinette's close circle of friends and classmates (or their parents).

      Hawk Moth HAS to pick them. There are simply too many people in the city of Paris, and 99.99999% of those people aren't going to be getting along swimmingly with their neighbors every single day since the series timeline began. We're not talking about the statistics involving violence in Paris or even heated verbal disagreements, we're simply talking about people walking around with personal grievances and chips on their shoulders, major resentments over some recent slight that they've suffered, or that they've been carrying around for any length of time. Basically, your argument is that in a city as large as Paris over the time since the series began, ONLY 30 people met the criteria necessary for candidacy for akumatization by Hawk Moth -- and ALL of those people just happen to to have crossed pathways closely with someone well-known by Marinette. Let's just focus on the list of "heartbroken" people for example: Mr Ramier, Theo, Roger, Jalil, Kim, Fred Haprele, Rose, Ivan, Vincent, Juleka, Lila, Max... and nobody that WASN"T connected in some way to Marinette? No other similarly-brokenhearted people during that same time frame in a city of 2,241,346 estimated population? (I guess I will allow that maybe Hawk Moth's psychic perceptions won't carry as far as the 10.5 million inhabitants of the outlying suburbs.)

      What I'm suggesting is that, in a city the size of Paris over the same time period, there are FAR more incidences of emotional meltdowns than Hawk Moth can EVER akumatize. SO one of the following two criteria applies as far as how those emotional meltdowns got CHOSEN for akumatization candidates:

      1. Hawk Moth psychically sifts through the candidates, which may not be any great time-consuming labor-intensive project, because he is limiting his candidates psychically to those whose heads he can see into and catch a glimse of someone who knows or is known to Marinette or one of her close friends - he is deliberately picking them as someone who will come into contact with Marinette or her friends again soon - which means he knows Marinette is Ladybug.

      2, He doesn't know that she's Ladybug, but suitable candidates ONLY show up on Hawk Moth's psychic radar IF they are within a couple degrees of Marinette's circle of friends. HOW exactly does that work? I have absolutely NO idea. But it MUST be so, if Hawk Moth himself is not deliberately doing the choosing, because all that we are left with IS candidates for akumatization that have crossed pathways with Marinette's inner circle. This latter criteria in the narrowing of the much larger number of otherwise emotionally-compatible potental candidates is a requirement for Hawk Moth being able to psychically sense them, although both he, and Ladybug & Cat Noir, remain completely unaware of this. This would imply that the unperceived connection between the hero-hunting villain and his heroic prey somehow operates invisibly due to a connection to their Miraculouses, which in turn is defining the boundaries of Hawk Moth's psychic sensory capabilities.

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    • I think an issue would be that Hawk Moth would likely not want to sort through 2 million people's emotions at once. That's where his chamber possibly comes into use, which to me may be designed to filter out the most Akuma-worthy emotional energies from the everyday rabble.

      And we really cannot assume that he's only ever attacked 30+ times. There's likely been many, many more Akuma than we've seen since he first appeared. The episodes mostly focus on those with direct connections to Marinette's life because they're established characters we can feel sorry for when they're getting akumatized and thus make for more interesting stories than random background fillers.

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    • I'd like to know what would happen if Marinette's parents got akumatized.

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    • Maetch wrote:

      I think an issue would be that Hawk Moth would likely not want to sort through 2 million people's emotions at once. 

      He doesn't have to. Of the 2.24 million inhabitants of Paris, it's likely that well over 95% of them are living emotionally well-adjusted lives, and would never even come close to being within the boundaries of potential akumatization candidates. 5% of that number is "only" a little over 112,000. Still sound like a big number? How many of that remainder do you think are having an "emotional meltdown" AT THE SAME TIME? Maybe something like 1%? Then there would be other factors that would tend to act as natural filters, like distance away from Hawk Moth, and the "intensity" scale of their negative emotional waves. Anyone TOO manic or violent is probably right out -- too hard for him to manipulate. They've got to be in some medium range where where they're motivated by revenge enough, but still controllable. The strong-willed types are out, too. Has to be someone that's pliable to suggestion... But not TOO low intelligence. And it goes on like that. AND as soon as he finds one that fits all his parameters, he's done looking. Big chunks of percentages of that 1120 or so he started with are going to be filtered out in a few quick passes. If you're imagining this emotional "scanning" as some kind of thorough, methodical CAT scan or something, forget it. It's got to be more like waving a geiger counter detector around to get a directional fix, and level reading, or even more basic -- like looking up into the night sky and picking out the bright stars (metaphorically speaking, almost exactly the inverse of that).

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    • CleffaGirl wrote:
      I'd like to know what would happen if Marinette's parents got akumatized.

      Marinette's parents have to be two of the most emotionally well-adjusted people you'd ever find. WHY would THEY be akumatized? I really can't think of a plausible scenario.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      No, it's statistically impossible if the emotional angst is purely generated by random human interactions among the citizens of Paris. Why never any kids from other schools? Do those kids never have problems? Why is there never more than 2 degrees of seperation from Marinette, to her close circle of friends, to her friends' parents, to the akumatized? In other words it's ALWAYS someone who is NOT a total stranger, and statistically, IF Hawk Moth is simply sensing people with emotional anguish in Paris, that should not be. Even when the akumatized aren't people Marinette has known for any length of time, it's always someone that she or one of her close friends seems to have met just recently or that same day. If Hawk Moth is simply taking these people as their situations arise, then 98% of them should be from here, there, and everywhere in Paris, that are "completely out of the blue" and have never crossed paths with anyone Marinette knows personally. Someone within Marinette's close circle of friends and classmates (or their parents) has always encountered Hawk Moth's pawn BEFORE he is akumatized -- that is, if the akumatized isn't ONE of Marinette's close circle of friends and classmates (or their parents).

      Hawk Moth HAS to pick them. There are simply too many people in the city of Paris, and 99.99999% of those people aren't going to be getting along swimmingly with their neighbors every single day since the series timeline began. We're not talking about the statistics involving violence in Paris or even heated verbal disagreements, we're simply talking about people walking around with personal grievances and chips on their shoulders, major resentments over some recent slight that they've suffered, or that they've been carrying around for any length of time. Basically, your argument is that in a city as large as Paris over the time since the series began, ONLY 30 people met the criteria necessary for candidacy for akumatization by Hawk Moth -- and ALL of those people just happen to to have crossed pathways closely with someone well-known by Marinette. Let's just focus on the list of "heartbroken" people for example: Mr Ramier, Theo, Roger, Jalil, Kim, Fred Haprele, Rose, Ivan, Vincent, Juleka, Lila, Max... and nobody that WASN"T connected in some way to Marinette? No other similarly-brokenhearted people during that same time frame in a city of 2,241,346 estimated population? (I guess I will allow that maybe Hawk Moth's psychic perceptions won't carry as far as the 10.5 million inhabitants of the outlying suburbs.)

      What I'm suggesting is that, in a city the size of Paris over the same time period, there are FAR more incidences of emotional meltdowns than Hawk Moth can EVER akumatize. SO one of the following two criteria applies as far as how those emotional meltdowns got CHOSEN for akumatization candidates:

      1. Hawk Moth psychically sifts through the candidates, which may not be any great time-consuming labor-intensive project, because he is limiting his candidates psychically to those whose heads he can see into and catch a glimse of someone who knows or is known to Marinette or one of her close friends - he is deliberately picking them as someone who will come into contact with Marinette or her friends again soon - which means he knows Marinette is Ladybug.

      2, He doesn't know that she's Ladybug, but suitable candidates ONLY show up on Hawk Moth's psychic radar IF they are within a couple degrees of Marinette's circle of friends. HOW exactly does that work? I have absolutely NO idea. But it MUST be so, if Hawk Moth himself is not deliberately doing the choosing, because all that we are left with IS candidates for akumatization that have crossed pathways with Marinette's inner circle. This latter criteria in the narrowing of the much larger number of otherwise emotionally-compatible potental candidates is a requirement for Hawk Moth being able to psychically sense them, although both he, and Ladybug & Cat Noir, remain completely unaware of this. This would imply that the unperceived connection between the hero-hunting villain and his heroic prey somehow operates invisibly due to a connection to their Miraculouses, which in turn is defining the boundaries of Hawk Moth's psychic sensory capabilities.

      Okay, assuming he is picking them- how has he known this entire time who Ladybug and Cat Noir are, but is still surprised by Adrien's ring in "Simon Says", an episode that chronologically happens in May? How has he not sent akumas specifically to target Marinette? Only one of them has ever gone for her and it was because Max was angry at her in the first place.

      It's "statistically impossible" that he's known this whole time who they are, even Ladybug. Further, there's no connection between them and Vincent Aza or Simon Grimault whatsoever. They don't personally know anyone tied to either of them when they're akumatised, and no one they know personally knows them, either. The connections don't form until after the akumatisation. We also have no idea how they could know Theo past one small interaction. Theo knows of them, as most people do, but he doesn't know them. There's no evidence he's a student at the school and not a volunteer the one day he shows up since he's never in the school otherwise.

      I'm not going to write out the 26 different inciting incidents again, but they're all fairly unique situations. Things that don't happen every day to everyone. Every day emotional upset doen't trigger his notice, it has to be something exceptional for that person. And we don't see every akuma fight- we've heard of a couple ("I was two spots away from transforming back in front of Cat Noir" mention from "The Gamer", the akuma fight right at the start of "The Mime" we don't see, possibly at the start of "The Pharaoh" we don't see, one at the start of "Lady Wifi" we don't see, and one at the start of "Darkblade", as well as another possible two shown in flashback in "The Bubbler", since she doesn't need to transform into Ladybug to rescue a cat from a tree and helicoptors don't usually go out of control on their own). They don't show the ones that aren't going to trigger a response from the audience.

      For everyone he's picked so far, their voice might have cried out the loudest of what he hears in a day. That window of his opens before he starts speaking sometimes. If there is any choice, it's him picking the strongest negative emotion, not him picking people who are close to Adrien and Marinette. It's whatever emotion calls out the loudest and as I already explained, kids that age are very dramatic and tend to have their emotions amped up. If their hearts get broken (as in like Rose) or something goes horribly wrong (like with Juleka), then that's the end of the world to them.

      For your Point 2, it's plausible, but I don't think likely, that the Ladybug and Black Cat Miraculouses amplify the emotions of people around them. Normally this would be to make stronger superheroes, but instead, it makes stronger supervillains. He can't figure out exactly who they are from this, especially since while their feelings are amplified, some emotions outside the radius stick out, but it justifies why people around Marinette and Adrien get akumatised.

      He doesn't choose people because they're close to Adrien and Marinette. He just doesn't. The fact that he targets Simon and Vincent, complete strangers, is proof of that.

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    • I said that they're all within 2 degrees of connection to Marinette (or Adrien). Marinette is at Hotel Bourgeois when Jagged Stone and Penny Rolling arrive, because of her connection through the owner's daughter, Chloe, so Marinette is right there on the scene to observe the obsessive behavior that will lead to Vincent Aza's emotional meltdown. Jagged (and Penny) are the SOURCE of the emotional disturbance that upsets Vincent Aza, making him a potential candidate. BEFORE Vincent is akumatized, he has already crossed paths with Marinette. It doesn't matter if he's not aware of her, she's aware of him.

      Simon Grimalt is a contestant on the same episode of The Challenge as Marinette's friend and schoolmate Nino, and the source of HIS emotional disturbance is Gabriel Agreste (Adrien's father). Marinette is sure to be aware of what's happening on the show right away, because Nino's involvement guarantees it. Any "complete strangers" akumatized can ALWAYS be connected to Marinette (or Adrien) in 2 steps. Hawk Moth certainly DID choose Simon deliberately, because he has to stop and decide about the "risky" factor of Simon's hatred of Gabriel Agreste. Since that means he MIGHT have decided against akumatizing him, we can certainly postulate other emotional meltdown victims where Hawk Moth decided, for whatever reason, that this potential candidate is of no use to him.

      Theo has a strong romantic crush on Ladybug, and Ladybug IS Marinette. Marinette also knows she is expected to attend the unveiling of a statue dedicated to honor herself (as Ladybug) and Cat Noir -- a statue that has been sculpted by the love-struck Theo, whose love doesn't turn to negative emotions until Ladybug fails to show up at the unveiling, causing him to feel hurt by her ignoring his tribute to her, and Cat Noir's conversation with Theo makes him jealous and envious. In this instance, they are the DIRECT cause of Theo's emotional angst (although you could say he was a smoldering powder keg).

      Animan is Otis Cesare, Alya's father, and Alya is Marinette's best friend. He doesn't get akumatized until he loses his temper due to Kim LeChein (another personal acquaintance of Marinette) teasing the panther at the zoo -- and Marinette just happens to be visiting the zoo the same day that Otis is akumatized. Kim is the source of Otis' emotional meltdown. It's always within 2 steps of Marinette (or Adrien) -- either through their personal experience, or the experience of someone well-known to them. Frequently they are there to witness the victim before being akumatized, or if not, are close by in the same vicinity. Other times its one of Marinette's friends that is involved (or related) somehow with the victim of akumatization BEFORE it happens.

      Hawk Moth's emotional radar is sensitive to the "dramatic, amped up" emotions of children and or those with broken hearts. But for some strange reason, NOT to those kids with dramatic amped-up emotions or broken hearts who attend other schools in Paris apart from College Francoise Dupont -- the very school that Marinette and Adrien are enrolled in, and all of the akumatized students are personally known to them. We must then assume that none of the other students in Paris are experiencing the intensity of dramatic amped-up emotions that students at CFD experience. None of those other students at other schools are ever embarassed in front of their classes, suffer similar situations of romantic rejection and crushed dreams. Those kinds of situations only happen at College Francoise Dupont, at least at the amped-up intensity levels required by Hawk Moth to qualify for potential candidates for akumatization.

      As for how the connection works through the Ladybug, Cat Noir, and Butterfly Miraculous, I'd only be guessing. Emotional connections have something to do with it, as does geographical proximity to Marinette or someone she knows well, but there would seem to be a kind of chaos theory or fractal geometry component that somehow tunes into the pathways connecting people to each other through encounters, with the inner circle being people Marinette knows well or has for some time, and the outer circle recent or chance encounters with someone relatively new encountering one of them. If it's not Hawk Moth, then SOMETHING is choosing people to make sure that Marinette doesn't miss the events leading to the akumatized villain's creation or can't quickly learn of them from someone she knows well.

      In a city the size and population of Paris, there HAS to be another factor narrowing the range of emotional meltdown candidates that Hawk Moth akumatized. It is statisically impossible IF interpersonal situations leading to emotional grievances are the ONLY determining factor in Hawk Moth's akumatizing people, to believe that those type of conditions and emotional problems NEVER happen to other people in Paris who are unknown to anyone directly connected to Marinette. Marinette NEVER has to be apprised second- or third-hand to watch a supervillain rampage being reported by the news media and happening on the other side of Paris, involving a victim whose emotional trigger source isn't someone Marinette or her friends are on the scene to witness, and she rarely has to change to Ladybug and travel far from her present location when she learns of it. Most of the time it begins and is happening right where she is, or close by. If there are other akumatized victims whom Marinette & Adrien or any of their friends have never met before being akumatized, then we are not being told of those stories by the series -- if the supervillain is being dealt with by some other superhero (of whom we know nothing) that's possible, but then we would have to ask HOW does that get Hawk Moth any closer to his goal of grabbing Ladybug & Cat Noir's Miraculouses?

      If the episodes seen on the series account for the majority of people akumatized by Hawk Moth, then even if he doesn't know Ladybug's and Cat Noir's true identities (and his comments in "Simon Says" about Marinette's earrings and Adrien's ring may or may not be indicative of whether he does know, or is merely engaging in a clever bit of dissembling), he should be able to greatly narrow his list of suspects for L&C's true identities based on a cursory statistical analysis of the people he HAS akumatized. The large percentage of victims who are students of College Francoise Dupont or parents of those students or teachers (Mr. D'Argentcourt) are like points on a graph that cluster up, and should be indicating to Hawk Moth that the heroes he is hunting are involved with that school somehow in their true identities. It's probably not hard to guess that Ladybug and Cat Noir seem young enough to be students themselves. He can also know that none of the people he has already akumatized are the secret identities of L&C. The fact that they're the Chosen Ones to be holders of those Miraculouses has already eliminated them as candidates for emotional problems. Hawk Moth is NOT a Chosen One to hold the Butterfly Miraculous -- he was never meant to have it, which is proven by his misuse of the powers granted by it. Although Nooroo is reluctant to grant those powers to Gabriel, he MUST obey because Gabriel controls his Miraculous.

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    • Let's just agree to disagree, since we've detracted from the topic at hand and there's no way to prove either of us is right as of now. I'm not giving up or changing my view, but I'm tired of arguing the same thing over and over again.

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    • Let's just say that all of these coincidences of statistically improbable distribution of akumatized emotional meltdown sufferers service the dramatic purposes of the show's writers. If the situations dramatized don't involve characters who impact the lives of the stars of the series -- Marinette & Adrien -- then dramatically speaking, it's not an episode worth creating (or watching), because then the viewer isn't going to care so much. Additionally, if the situations leading to supervillains being created aren't leading to both (A) an opportunity for Hawk Moth to make a grab at L&C's Miraculouses, and (B) a dramatic scenario in which L&C have a fair chance at disovering the source of the villain's emotional distress, and identifying which object belonging to them houses their akuma and destroying it, then they can't possibly "save the day" and be heroes.

      At the same time, in terms of pure real-world logic, that level of coincidence makes absolutely NO sense unless, as a fan of the show, you can INVENT a logical reason that it is so.

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    • Positronic wrote:
      Let's just say that all of these coincidences of statistically improbable distribution of akumatized emotional meltdown sufferers service the dramatic purposes of the show's writers. If the situations dramatized don't involve characters who impact the lives of the stars of the series -- Marinette & Adrien -- then dramatically speaking, it's not an episode worth creating (or watching), because then the viewer isn't going to care so much. Additionally, if the situations leading to supervillains being created aren't leading to both (A) an opportunity for Hawk Moth to make a grab at L&C's Miraculouses, and (B) a dramatic scenario in which L&C have a fair chance at disovering the source of the villain's emotional distress, and identifying which object belonging to them houses their akuma and destroying it, then they can't possibly "save the day" and be heroes.

      At the same time, in terms of pure real-world logic, that level of coincidence makes absolutely NO sense unless, as a fan of the show, you can INVENT a logical reason that it is so.

      No, let's not just say any of that because I think you're wrong and I have given plenty of evidence. So I'm not going to say that. You can say that, but I do not agree. I'm trying to avoid an argument, but I'm frustrated with this refusing to even acknowledge I could have a point thing. You could be right, I can admit that, but I do not think you are. I have my own view of it, and yes, there are indeed Akuma attacks we are not shown. 

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    • We disagree, no argument there.

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    • Talk about derailing the conversation...

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    • I still think that the details relayed in the Christmas special--mainly that Mrs. Agreste passionately loved Christmas, disappeared sometime between last Christmas and the Christmas special, and that Nathalie LITERALLY means "born on Christmas Day"--are quite intriguing coincidences. Especially given that it now has such a sour place in Gabriel's heart.

      Her hairstyle is also very similar, but inverted: parted to the left instead of the right.

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    • That's incredibly interesting...

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    • Yes, until the Christmas Special I was under the impression that Mrs. Agrest had disappeared years ago, possibly when Adrien was still very young.

      It's hard to see Nathalie as Mrs. Agrest unless there were some plastic surgery involved. Nathalie's facial structure is no more like Mrs. Agreste's than Juleika's is.

      But if your theory were true, it's even harder to account for why Gabriel would treat his own wife like a mere servant, a hireling. One who is obviously afraid of incurring his wrath -- so much so that's she's willing to stoop as low as stealing an innocent girl's birthday present to Adrien, and passing it off as one she purchased for him as from his father.

      Yet it is Nathalie who needs to try to advise Gabriel that it might be in Adrien's best interest to attend school with normal kids his own age, and that he deserves a family Christmas eve spent together with his father. Far from being the heartless one, she merely points out that if she seems distant and emotionless, Gabriel makes her look warm and friendly by comparison with himself.

      One would think that if some accident were to result in Mrs. Agreste losing her memories and all emotional feelings, her husband, if he truly loved her, would exhaust every avenue in getting her professional psychiatric treatment to return her to her normal self.

      If Nathalie is really Mrs. Agreste suffering from some dissociative disorder of diminished emotional response, then Gabriel's treatment of her amounts to the same as if his father suffered from Alzheimer's disease and Agreste decided that his only usefulness to him now would be to employ him as a gardener or a janitor.

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    • Implying Gabriel acts like a normal human being in any other way.

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    • No, he doesn't. But which of them is guilty of being more cold and distant? Nathalie's reserved demeanor seems positively pleasant compared to Gabriel's -- but it's also exactly the demeanor you'd expect of an employee of Agreste's who was eager to maintain her tone of detached professionalism and her good standing in her demanding boss' eyes.

      If he's supposedly doing the whole Hawk Moth bit for her sake, then his treatment of her makes no sense and his supposed motivation for seeking the Ladybug & Cat Noir Miraculous (to restore his wife to normal) makes no sense either.

      If Nathalie is Mrs. Agrest, then it would make more sense if SHE were the one worried about restoring Gabriel to his normal self, and she was playing a role (opposite that of her true personality) in disguise (through magic or plastic surgery) in order to be close by where she can keep a watchful eye on both Gabriel and Adrien. I don't believe that's true however, since she's clearly panicked easily over the thought of incurring his anger.

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    • A FANDOM user
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