• I am starting to wonder if Hawkmoth ever acquired the Miraculous, would he discover that they wouldn't work for him?

    Judging from what Tikki and Plagg say in Origins, you have to know the codephrase to use the power they give you and a Kwami will only give you this phrase once they know you can be trusted.
    And it appears just having the Miraculous alone doesn't take away the freewill of a Kwami, so I doubt they could be compelled to give the codephrase to Hawkmoth.

    So if this theory is true, if Hawkmoth is successful in getting their Miraculous, would he discover all he has is jewellery and a pair of angry Kwami?
    Since he doesn't know the words to claim their power.

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    • No, Nooroo would tell Hawkmoth even if he didn't want to because Kwami have to obey their weilder.

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    • From all the evidence gathered so far, just because you have a Miraculous doesn't take away the Kwami's free will.

      Tikki has disagreed with Marinette several times, usually because she is acting as the voice of reason/conscience.
      Adrien can't stop Plagg from doing silly and occasionally destructive things.

      As for Nooroo, given how horrified he is when Hawkmoth reveals his true plans, this would suggest that he was explaining everything because he wanted to, not because he was forced to.
      Otherwise the tone of the conversation would have been a lot different, he sounds rather happy to be helpful prior to this point, afterwards he sounds sad that his power is going to used for evil.

      And I assume while Kwami may know each other's capabilities and powers, they don't share their specific codephrases with anyone but the chosen wielder.
      So if this theory is true, Nooroo could not tell Hawkmoth the words to use because he simply does not know them.

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    • Actually, Thomas Astruc explained at a panel at Japan Weekend 2016 that "Kwami are like Aladdin's genie, having to obey their holders' desires." They can absolutely disagree with their masters, and they don't have to obey everything when they are asked, but when it comes to Miraculous-related matters, they have to obey their master, whether it's for good or bad.

      I think you're right that kwamis generally want to be helpful, or at least have meaningful bonds with their masters when they are free to disagree, give advice, and/or do what they want outside of their Miraculous duties. However, this desire isn't always reality, and if they're with an evil master, they aren't free to do those things. If Nooroo didn't have to help Hawk Moth, he would've rebeled more than just noting that Miraculouses are not meant for evil before bowing down. Also, what point would there be to stealing the Ladybug Miraculous and Cat Miraculous if the kwami wouldn't obey? The wearer is their master, and they must tell them everything, including the transformation phrase, or else it would never be a problem of villains being able to use Miraculouses.

      Another point is that "Dark wings, rise!" doesn't sound like it would be the normal transformation phrase; "Wings, rise!" seems like it would be the normal phrase for a good Moth Miraculous holder. I think Hawk Moth altered the transformation phrase to include the "dark" part, reflecting his own villainous intent for his transformation. Perhaps transformation phrases are important and there is a preferred phrase to use, but it can be altered or phrased in a different way and still have the same outcome for the wearer.

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    • Well, since it happened so fast, the impression that scene gave me was Nooroo resigning himself to the fact he was about to be absorbed by his Miraculous without permission so his powers could be used for evil.

      Marinette and Adrien have empowered themselves without asking, but only rarely fortunately.

      I assume that villians often overlook that one little flaw in their plan and the codephrases might be the one Hawkmoth isn't understanding.
      Since he's never succeeded in actually getting the Miraculous, he might not have factored in the resistance of a Kwami who already knows how evil he is.
      Ultimately though, I think this can only be resolved if he does get them and we see what happens.
      I'm anticipating we will see this happen at some point, most likely for double episode feature/special event.
      Just so we have something different and dramatic happen.
      Of course, in that scenario, it'll have to be Beegirl and Foxgirl who save the day, I doubt Marinette or Adrien are a match for Hawkmoth without their powers.

      Like you said, I think all that's necessary is to say "Wings Rise", the dark part is just something he added on for dramatic villianous flair.

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    • Maybe he just want to eleminate the competition. If he has the other Miraculous, he is the only Miraculous holder and the strongest person on the planet.

      If he managed to use the other Miraculous himself, together with Nooroo, that's a good bonus. (Although, I think if he can use Plagg and Tikki on the same time, and he has the absolute power, he will ditch Toogoo imediatly. After which, Marinette and Adrien can use him to stop 'the former Hawk Moth. They can even use him to transform into Cat Noire and Ladybug. Nooroo was shown in the past to have the ability to give other people the powers of Miraculous holders if they disired it.)

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    • Actually, in that scenario, only one of them would be able to simulate the power they used to have, since the other would have to be using the Moth Miraculous.
      I assume you can't use the Moth Miraculous to empower yourself.
      I would choose Ladybug to be empowered, since she's the one most likely to be able to defeat Hawkmoth.

      But if it was me, I wouldn't stop at just Ladybug, given that the Moth Miraculous is now being used by someone with noble intentions, I'd ask for volunteers to be empowered, specifically Marinette's class.
      Imagine all the villains Hawkmoth created now repurposed to fight evil.
      I'm assuming Alix as Timebreaker would have to use different powers, since her original power was fairly lethal.

      Honestly though, I don't think Hawkmoth is really interested in using the Moth Miraculous long term.
      He's just using it until he gets the ones he actually wants, in order to gain ultimate power.

      The christmas special did give us one more interesting concept regarding the powers, that repeating the phrase allows you to return to normal.
      I assume that would have to be expected, as if you're not fighting evil and thus have not used your ultimate power, you're going to need a way to change back quickly.

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    • Buckmana wrote:

      The christmas special did give us one more interesting concept regarding the powers, that repeating the phrase allows you to return to normal.
      I assume that would have to be expected, as if you're not fighting evil and thus have not used your ultimate power, you're going to need a way to change back quickly.

      I honestly think the Christmas special was a typo, and Adrian was supposed to say "claws in." After all, we've seen Marinette call off her transformation before, and she says, "spots off." It makes more sense that way.

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