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  • Positronic wrote:

    The amount of time Gabriel has to detransform and retransform in "Volpina" is not what's in question. It's the amount of time he has from the beginning of "The Collector", when Gabriel discovers his book is missing. Since he's already detransformed back into Gabriel by this time, it's at THAT point that he recognizes the need to akumatize HIMSELF -- but for all we know, while Gabriel is still looking at security camera pictures of Adrien taking the book from behind his wife's painting, Nooroo may be eating his lunch even at that moment. Marinette has a rather unhurried meeting with Master Fu, and we must also assume some intervening time between the time she left Adrien's house as Ladybug (in "Volpina") and the time she arrives at Master Fu's place, before The Collector begins his rampage, so between discovering the book missing and akumatizing himself, Nooroo had plenty of time to eat if he needed to.

    Five minutes isn't some sacred number or some invarying law of nature. Five minutes is subjective -- it's a man-made concept, as men conceive time, broken down into "minutes" and "seconds", but it means nothing to nature. It's a good amount of time, if you're superheroes with abilities similar to Ladybug's and Cat Noir's, to have advance notice that you're about to lose those abilities. Different people with different job descriptions need different amounts of time to wrap up what they're doing as the work day ends, and that includes people who are assigned to different tasks working for the same company. Why should different superheroes with different powers be any different that that?

    Uh, yes. that is exactly what I've been saying, that that is literally the only time Nooroo could be eating is the time from when he detransformed after the Volpina incident to when he went back in there to akumatise himself. That's the only time period, but you keep arguing it could be during Volpina's ragepage. But it isn't a long period of time is what I've been saying. Because the entire thing has to happen at the tail end of two hours (how long lunches are in France), and everything from Lila leaving the school to buy the pendant to Marinette returning to the school is two hours. You cannot argue that point- it's two hours on a Friday between the morning classes and the afternoon classes. This cannot be disputed, because they go back to school right after she's done talking with Master Fu and again, it's Friday, because Adrien has fencing. Master Fu's place seems to be near the school, because of how fast he gets to Marinette (who is going to her first day back at school in September) after Wayzz tells him about Nooroo and how he hangs around in the rain and also finds Adrien so quickly. It also has to be close to fit within the two-hour timeframe. So does the jewellery store. Marinette also gets to Master Fu's place pretty quick after leaving her house- she has to, in order to fit in the time constraints. So this means Marinette's visit and getting to school could perfectly span the time between Adrien's dad confronting him and Mr Agreste destroying the atelier, and wouldn't need to take more than fifteen minutes. Especially since Marinette ran to school from there, not walked, which shortens the amount of time she had between the defeat of Volpina and returning to school after lunch. The fact that she ran but is still there before school is back in session also indicates it's close to the school. Nooroo had time, but not a lot of it, and might not have had enough to actually eat in. It depends on a few factors but I've already explained them a few times. If you do not buy that Gabriel knows his son is Cat Noir, Nooroo's time is shortened because Gabriel needs to be able to hear Ladybug's call to Cat Noir to know she at least suspects him. In this scenario, he would have either gone down to take his anger out on someone but picked up on Ladybug's call to Cat Noir, or went to go reakumatise Lila, who you will note he said was still angry, or he intended to akumatise himself to get the book back and discovered he needed to hide his identity. Your choice- give Nooroo a longer period to eat, or go with Gabriel probably knowing his son is Cat Noir. And keep in mind, Nooroo only has time to eat in if we assume Nooroo is not always with Gabriel, but is left behind in the lair.

    Fie, I'll explain why five is so important, though you, as I recall, are the one who said all timers have five minutes spread out at different intervals. Five, if you don't know, is a very important, positive number in China, where the Miraculouses were supposedly made. It's a lucky and unlucky number depending on its context but it's generally as far as I know, a lucky number. It's a powerful number. It's associated with the five Chinese elements (Water, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Wood) and the Emperor. There are five senses. There are five Buddha, five Wisdoms, five colours of importance in China (which are red, white, black, green, and yellow). There are five arches in the Forbidden City. There are five parts of the body associated with the five colours and they are all associated with the five elements, as well. Five has a lot more points that are significant in China. It's an important number.

    As I said, Five is lucky, and so are every single one of the animals associated with the Miraculous across different cultures. The Zodiac as a whole is considered lucky and, guess what, is heavily associated with the number five. Black cats were once considered lucky before their association with witches and some cultures still see them as lucky. Asia favours peacocks. Foxes are seen as lucky if you see only one when away from home. In Britain and Ireland, bees are seen as lucky. Butterflies are lucky, turtles are lucky. There are also five Miraculouses surrounding the Black Cat and Ladybug Miraculouses, which represent Yin and Yang.

    So I would argue that no, it's not arbitrary or subjective or anything like that at all. Five was chosen for a reason. And like I have said multiple times, it makes absolutely no sense to break it down into four (especially considering how in many places that number is associate with death, including China, which will go out of its way to avoid the number four), six, two, hypothetically seven if it isn't six, and possibly nine if it isn't five. It makes absolutely no sense to break them down like that because one-minute increments gives you a neat, accurate measurement of how much time you have left before you depower, and giving one Miraculous two minutes and another six doesn't make any sense.

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    • I don't know where you got the idea that I was talking about the time within the events of the episode "Volpina". I didn't say that at all. The only reference points that matter are that Hawk Moth uses an akuma to create Volpina out of Lila, and another akuma to create The Collector out of himself. If the hypothetical theory that he can only create one akuma per transformation is true, and that Nooroo, like Tikki & Plagg, also requires fuel to effect a transformation from Gabriel to Hawk Moth, then Nooroo will require some time outside his Miraculous to consume food. Since Gabriel only comes to the conclusion that he needs to akumatize himself to divert suspicion after discovering his book is missing, if Nooroo hasn't consumed any fuel by that point, he'll need to before he can transform Gabriel into Hawk Moth again and have another akuma ready.

      Five may be a lucky number, but so is four. That's why FOUR-leaf clovers are lucky, and Hawk Moth has four wings on his Miraculous. SEVEN is also considered a lucky number (especially in craps). "Find a penny, pick it up. All day long, you'll have good luck." A single penny is only ONE cent, but it's considered lucky to find one (folk wisdom from an earlier age). The concept of lucky numbers changes according to the times and the culture. If a "Cataclysm" is the same as a "catastrophe" then it's BAD LUCK (the opposite of a "Lucky Charm", in the same way that destruction is the opposite of creation). Black Cats are BAD luck, and the bad luck number is 13 -- but Cat Noir doesn't have 13 lights on his timer. Lucky #5 might symbolize Ladybug's lucky charm, but how does the number 5 symbolize the power of destruction? I think I've already pointed out in an earlier post that we shouldn't think of ALL the Miraculous as being associated with Chinese or Tibetan culture, because the Miraculous predate those cultures and are pan-global in origin. We really don't know WHERE they originated, or if they were ALL created at the same time. I suspect not. The only fact in evidence is that the Guardians' temple was located in Tibet before its destruction. That's where the Miraculous ended up, not where they started out.

      I don't say that it COULDN'T be a five-minute time-out for every Miraculous, only that it doesn't necessarily have to be so. We don't know. Maybe it is, or maybe it isn't. The five minutes can certainly be divided into different increments IF it needed to be five minutes, but I'm not convinced it does. You say it has to be BOTH five minutes total, AND that those five minutes need to be divided evenly into 1-minute increments. I don't see any reason why. The only thing I see as being necessary is that the user HAVE some notice, and that the notice is SUFFICIENT notice for that particular hero in light of what powers she has. We should also recall the fact that the mechanical type of clocks needed to measure 1-minute increments of time accurately were not available until the early 14th century in Europe.

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    • To be perfectly honest, what numbers are lucky in other countries doesn't matter. Plus, you asked me why I was talking about the number 5 so much and why I was so insistent on it. So I answered. 5 is very significant in China, moreso than any other number. There are numbers with more and less luck, and six also crops up a lot, but things come in fives quite a lot.

      You are only limiting yourself to Western number concepts. I'm talking about the place that matters- Asia, specifically China, where the Miraculouses were made.

      Four is as far removed from "lucky" as you can get in China. It literally symbolises death. Four is so avoided that they won't number floor that would ordinarily have a four in them, like 4 or 14. they'll be 5 and 15 instead. Houses with 4 in them sell for really low prices, and many ID numbes will avoid including the number 4. Hawk Moth's Miraculous has 4 wings because A) the butterfly of death and rebirth and B) Butterflies, don't know if you know this, often have 4 wings. So it has 4 wings because, well, any more or less would be silly, except two. It also has 4 wings because Nooroo does.

      The penny luck only applies if it's heads up, not tails. Or that's what I heard.

      5, like I said, is good AND bad luck. Also, black cats were once considered good luck before their association with witches. All of the animals have some good and bad luck associated with them. But they are all related to Luck itself, good or bad.

      Didn't we already discuss how the Mage made time irrelvant? Pretty sure we did. The man is dressed rather modern from what can be seen and apparently wearing a wristwatch. So the lack of cultures being formed? Irrelevant. Nothing about the Mage's storyline has contested with the facts of the show.

      Mh, no, Tibet? Where are you getting Tibet? Gabriel went to Tibet, but where, pray tell, does it say or imply that's where the Temple was? Considering the necessary isolation of the Temple to protect it from outsiders, it wouldn't be a place Gabriel and his wife could easily reach. So I find it supremely unlikely that's where the Miraculouses were. So, no. Not Tibet. China, since that is what the Miraculouses are associated with.

      Yes, I am saying the timers on the outside should be five evenly-spaced alarms. Otherwise I see no point in even bothering with the timers. Why not just give them a single warning and make them guess how much time is left? How are a mere two, widely-spaced warnings going to help? Five, equally-spaced increments gives you a clear, perfect understanding of where you are at with how much time you have left. It's too much of a coincidence that they're exactly five minutes. I already asked you to think about it without using minutes, but you're so stuck on how time didn't exist then that you're ignoring my point. I believe you actually dismissed the information about the Mage for being "contradictory" when the actual contradiction is Cernunnos being a cave painting. But if you really, truly want to argue that it's a cave painting long before Cernunnos existed and it was verified to be Cernunnos not someone he's based on, then kindly explain how someone of that prehistoric time could make the Miraculouses and their tools without having any knowledge of the future. Or metal. Or the animals depicted on the Miraculouses. It does not make sense to me to make two Miraculouses give you five warnings that are spaced apart in a manner that it isn't going to keep going off (as hypothetically with the Peacock at nine and Bee at seven) or give you very little warning (the Fox, at two). Especially if you know about time. Considering how often they mention the five-minutes thing, I feel it must be important. I can go count how many times they mention it if I must. And before you bring up how they're just talking about how they're going to time out so it's not important, they actually say "I'm going to change back soon!" or "I'm almost out of time" even if it's just the first beep.

      Maybe I'm just not understanding the time break-up system as you present it. Or rather, I'm not understanding how you think it makes perfect sense that the Fox doesn't get decent warning so overstays and detransforms because they misjudged the last 2 1/2 minutes of their time, but the Turtle has plenty of warnings. Or why the Fox would have only two minutes but the Peacock has nine. I feel like the Fox Miraculous is the biggest issue I have with your logic, and the fact that two, possibly three, were broken into five for no reason while the others do not have consistency. The real Fox Miraculous could have had five segments of colour or been shaped in such a way that it has five parts to it or the white tip could have had five points and altered between white and a very light orange. The Bee has six to seven strips but it could have had five. The turtle could have had five sections, not six. The Moth could have had five markings on the body of it like the Ladybug and Black Cat do. The Peacock could have 5 tail feathers, something Duusu herself displays. The mere fact that the Miraculouses were not designed (by the creators) with five in mind tells me they did not intend to have them abide by the 5-minute rule and they function differently. It's going to tell you that then that means the 5 is irrelevant and/or "time as we know didn't exist". I saved you the need to type that, since that's your counterargument every single time. But if the 5 minutes is irrelevant or was not designed with them in mind, how do their timers work? I say it like that because if I say "assuming" you'll just keep insting there are timers and this conversation is going in circles and getting very old. 

      If you're going to keep using the "they time out differently because of their different powers" argument, specifically explain what you mean using Hawk Moth and Volpina as your examples as to how theirs should have worked and should be working. Why would Hawk Moth need 4 minutes (or 5 or whatever time you want to give him) to akumatise someone, especially considering he is clearly not meant for combat so he is likely not out and about, and especially considering how fast his akumas find their victims. Why would Volpina only have 2 minutes (or 5 or whatever) to get to safety and out of sight to detransform somewhere she can get down easily from when she's trying to maintain her illusions so nothing is amiss? If you fancy, you can use them as both heroes and villains.

      By the way, to answer your earlier question, akumas are black regardless of if they're evil or good. It just means they're charged up. But again, I point out, not once is his Miraculous shown beeping after creating an akuma, even while he's talking to Robostus in a conversation that takes some time. Nor is it shown at a critical moment when he's stopping Riposte from gutting Adrien that he just came back from feeding Nooroo, which could be illustrated by him breaking into the conversation right before Adrien gets skewered and looking panicked. But it's never even vaguely implied he ever has to leave to recharge Nooroo. You're assuming they must run on the same rules as Tikki and Plagg, but we don't have indication of that. That's a fact- there is no indiation. You can make assumptions all you like, I do it all the time, but you cannot argue like you're using facts. I'm using facts- the fact that Nooroo never mentions a timing out when explaining the Moth's power, the fact that Hawk Moth is never shown even concerned about timing out, the fact that feeding Nooroo is never mentioned, the fact that Hawk Moth is never implied in the slightest to need to time out, the fact that the five outer Miraculouses are wildly inconsistent with their designs when it would have been easy to make them have some consistent number. The fact that whoever made the Miraculouses, regardless of if it was the Mage or not and regardless of if the Miraculouses changed designs over the years or not, had knowledge of the future to create the tools he made because of the Ancient Chinese and Ancient Egyptian Ladybugs using a yo-yo long before yo-yos were invented. The fact that five is consistently linked to the Miraculouses and is an important number in the country the Miraculouses hail from. The fact that Volpina, despite posing as the Fox-themed hero, did not have a timer while Copycat and Antibug did. The fact that the Moth's powers clearly work differently from the Black Cat and Ladybug due to his ability to use his Miraculous's abiliies the entire time, rather than in one move, and so it can't be assumed that their Miraculouses work the same. I've been mostly using facts this whole time, while you are primarily giving me assumptions and opinions.

      I will articulate clearly; As of right now, we do not have any evidence that there are timers, or how such timers would work, for the Miraculouses that are not the Ladybug and Black Cat. We do not have any evidence that those Miraculouses and Kwamis work the same way as those belonging to the Ladybug and the Black Cat. Assumptions and evidence are not the same thing. Logic and evidence are not the same thing. Logic dictates there are some kind of timers for them, but there is no evidence that they do.

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    • Just because I mention a couple of examples that pop immediately to mind (and would hopefully be recognizable) of other lucky numbers, doesn't mean I'm limiting myself to anything, Western or otherwise. You're the one insisting that all Miraculous are all-Chinese, all the time. Seems to me they can hardly be originated with a Chinese culture in mind if they have users in Iron Age Britain (Cernunnos), Bronze Age Greece (Herakles) and ancient Egypt (Ladybug), AND were created by some anachronistic mage who isn't even Chinese (from what I could tell). If they're Chinese, then it's by adoption only. Why would the Kwamis care about ethnocentricity? 

      Okay, Gabriel mentions Tibet, and we see a book about Tibet next to his wife's picture, but that doesn't PROVE the temple was in Tibet, and if Gabriel can tell stories about how he got the book differently to different people, then Tibet might have nothing to do with anything but his made-up stories. Now it's your turn to prove to me that the Miraculous were created in China and that the temple was located there, since I've never seen China specifically mentioned anywhere except in the Kung Food episode. I'm not sure where you got the idea that all the Miraculous were created in China, unless you're just assuming a guy named "Master Fu" must be from China. I'll buy that that's where the spellbook and Master Fu's box are later created (not by the mage), but that's later. Much later. Nor do I particularly care that much where those later things happened to originate. And arguably, the Kwamis of the Chinese Zodiac would have originated there, but that doesn't imply the other did, especially when we know of at least one earlier user in Egypt. At any rate, since the mage doesn't appear to be Chinese, what does that have to do with anything? If he's an anachronism in China, he can be an anachronism in Iron Age Britain among the Celts with Cernunnos, in classical era Greece with Herakles, or in ancient Egypt (whose civilization predates the Chinese one by some 1500 years) and we KNOW they had a Ladybug. IF the mage created ALL the Miraculous in ONE time and place, then it has to be the EARLIEST. Egypt or someplace else earlier. Seems like he might have done some traveling (in both time & space) though.  

      Strangely enough, Tibet was under Chinese rule of the Qing dynasty from 1720 until 1912. Master Fu was born just about 1830, and Tibet was invaded by the Hindu Dogra dynasty (from India) in 1841, when Master Fu was about 11-12. The invaders were repelled the following year in 1842, but the country remained under Chinese rule. Maybe an invading Hindu Dogra army destroyed the temple. 

      The existence of no proof does not disprove the possible existence of anything, especially if logic tends to dictate otherwise. Logic is good, as is the preservation of human life, which I like to think the Kwamis might care about. Pardon me if I think they might impart a little less importance to the consistency of an arbitrary number. A REASONABLE amount of time would be logical -- IF they cared about warning the users that their magic might be ending, but not necessarily a consistent amount of time. Nor does that preclude any hypothetically-existent timers from being 5 minutes, either. Do other timers than the ones we've seen exist? There's no way to tell. Are they all consistently 5 minute timers, if they do exist? There's no way to tell. I guess no one can stop theorizing, though.

      The general idea I'm getting here is that you didn't really grasp the wider implication of Nooroo's words "Throughout human history, there have been heroes..."   Throughout ALL history, Kwamis have sought to help ALL humans. It seems they needed ONE particular human who would be their hands and have a mind sufficiently advanced to understand the intent of their purpose to help all humanity -- so they found the mage, to create the Miraculous for them. A time traveler from the future? Quite possibly. "Thousands of years ago" doesn't imply a single digit number between 2 and 9 -- think wider, bigger, older. Maybe even human cultures that had existed but have since been completely forgotten, leaving few or no traces or records of any kind behind. We are given only a few random glimpses of various heroes associated with different human cultures in different time periods, but the idea here is that the Kwamis have always been with us. Wherever humans gathered in numbers and bred, where they sought to understand the world around them, record that knowledge, build cities and infrastructures and cultures, the Kwamis were with us to help heroes help humanity. Tikki and Plagg were the first, and they didn't just wait around until the Chinese people developed ideas that were conducive for them to make their debuts. What I'm getting from it is that the seven Miraculous and their Kwamis that wind up in Master Fu's box (prior to Nooroo and Duusu being lost) in the early 19th Century have been through MANY many users, not all, or even MOST of them Chinese. The fact that it's those particular seven is more of a function of those few having been... sifted, is a good word, by Asian people, from the rest of the Miraculous existing prior to that time. Master Fu (if that is his real name) may be Chinese, but that doesn't mean the temple that was destroyed was the first or only temple of the Guardians, or that ALL the Guardians were Chinese, or that the temple was located in China. The Kwamis care about helping ALL humanity, not just any one specific culture at any one given time period in history. They are spread throughout time and throughout the world, on all continents, in order to accomplish this.

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  • First off, I have every right to think you have taken issue with me. Nearly every respone you have given to something I have said has included a staggering amount of rudeness and sarcasm that has gone completely unwarranted. You constantly use ALL CAPS to get your point across and half your wording in reply to me feels like you are attacking me. If you are replying to what I said, you are talking to me more than you are talking to anyone else, just as I am more directly talking to you when replying to your take on something, because you are addressing what I said. I also have every right to think you totally ignored everything I wrote because you went on a two-paragraph explanation about something I summarised in a sentence, and you again clearly did not read everything I wrote because I did not contradict you, I even said you would haer no arguments from me on multiple points, ergo your point about me wanting to "win" every discussion is moot.

    What I did was I asked you to re-read what I'd written. You, from what I can tell, read what you quoted and stopped there. Else you would have seen that I literally said Marinette has issues with controlling her emotions right after where you stopped talking.

    I've ignored the rudeness you sling about multiple times, but you're specifically calling me out right now, so I in turn will call you out. Not that I expect you to read the entire thing.

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