This is the official discussion thread for S2E1, "The Collector".
Post and share your thoughts on the episode here. You will not need to mark spoilers in this thread.
This is the official discussion thread for S2E1, "The Collector".
Post and share your thoughts on the episode here. You will not need to mark spoilers in this thread.
Gabriel doesn't need to say anything at all. It'd not surprise me if he outright refused to say.
Even if he doesn't say anything, the most likely thing Adrien will think if he's the one who finds the pictures is "Marinette is the one who returned the book to my father!". That's the thing being talked about- if Marinette keeping the pictures on her phone is a bad thing or not. It ultimately isn't, even if Alya is the one to find them. If anything it means she can later look at them when Le Paon, Rena Rouge, and Carapace come on to the scene.
But I'm still not sure the phone was hers- Nino's phone is nearly identical to hers, too, so Master Fu may have a similar phone. I actually would argue Nino's phone IS identical to hers, but the page descripions say his edging is grey, not white.
And why would Nino's phone being the one used to take the photos?
It might have been smarter just to mail the book back to Gabriel anonymously, with a vague unsigned note along the lines of "Dear Sir, I noticed your son (I recognized him from his photographs) dropped this book while he was sitting on a park bench talking to a friend, but I didn't have a chance to catch up with him, so I found your address online and am mailing the book back to you. No need for any reward, since I consider a good deed done its own reward."
Gabriel also never actually tries to get the Miraculouses even though he says he does in like, the least convincing "I am totally not Hawk Moth" way he could in the least convincing tone: "But before I immortalize you, allow me to seize your Miraculous for Hawk Moth!". Probably the line that got the biggest laugh out of me in that episode. He's bad at denying it in the French dub, too. Gabriel's goal was just to distract them. Capturing them and getting their Miraculouses would be a lovely bonus, but it wasn't his top priority once he was forced to change his plan to dealing with both of them at the same time. He also couldn't capture them I don't think and still become Gabriel again. He needed Ladybug to win, since he can't undo his akumatisation without his Miraculous.
Gabriel's goal in grounding Adrien was simply to capture Adrien and stop Cat Noir from going to Ladybug's aid, I think. His rage at finding Adrien not there implies that to me, because Adrien would normally never be a target. While true he would be safe in the book, he'd also be safe if Gabriel didn't go anywhere near the house while akumatised and went to the Champs-Élysées to draw Ladybug and Cat Noir to him, which is across the Seine and well away from his manor. But he didn't, he went to try and capture Adrien. He knows akumas sometimes won't hurt people, like how Horrificator wouldn't touch Ivan or how Evillustrator was so gentle with Marinette. So he could have left either his staff or just Adrien alone and no one would bat an eye. But he did try and capture Adrien.
I think he probably intended to un-ground Adrien very soon after he was deakumatised, saying that he overreacted and that Adrien may indeed return to school. He does say he overreacted when putting the book away. It was just convenient to him that Marinette returned the book to him. Which, she did in person I think to ask where he got the book from and to make sure Adrien was allowed back at school. So a letter wouldn't work, I don't think. Not the same way. If he's not Hawk Moth (in their minds) there is no hard im her returning the book directly to him, either. But I think they both still suspect him to some degree, where Adrien doesn't. Tikki even calls what Marinette did "brave", so she might be risking her identity to help Adrien.
One thing that is going to drive me nuts is how people take both things he says about where he got the book as both being true- they can't be. "I found it when on a trip oveseas with my wife" is not the same thing as "This book was the very last thing your mother gave to me before she disappeared". Those are contrasting statements. In the former, he's saying that the person who found the book was Gabriel, and that he found it while he was with his wife abroad. In the latter, he says his wife is the one who gave him the book, implying she is the one who found it while they were presumably abroad. Surely I'm not alone in my belief that only one of those statements is true?
It's odd if Gabriel requires Ladybug to de-akumatize himself.
How is that supposed to work as the Moth Miraculous was intended to, if he's a superhero Hawk Moth, not a supervillain? He akumatizes his proxy heroes and they just stay akumatized forever, unless Ladybug is available to change them back? Granted, as long as Hawk Moth is creating proxy villains, Ladybug will always be needed to stop them. But surely it can't be intended to work that way. And if there's nothing stopping Gabriel from akumatizing himself after detransforming from Hawk Moth, there must be some failsafe preventing him from remaining in that akumatized form forever. It's just counterintuitive that the powers were intended to work that way, and would be entirely dependent on Ladybug.
Keeping Adrien grounded isn't necessarily going to keep Cat Noir out of the action. He snuck out before. However, as long as Nathalie and/or le gorille is available to keep watch on him, it's going to make it difficult for Adrien to change. Gabriel obviously can't watch him if he's busy as Hawk Moth. But if he's grounded, then it seems like there should be a lot more opportunities for Gabriel to get his ring, so UN-grounding him doesn't help Hawk Moth's cause, plus it should be easier for his akumatized villains to beat Ladybug if Cat Noir's not available to help her.
Gabriel's two statements about the book certainly appear to be contradictory, but there's a way that they might not be. If Gabriel found the book overseas and presented it to his wife as a gift, and then she gave it back to him before she disappeared, that would make both his statements technically true. Why would she give it back to him if it were his gift to her? I don't know, but it might have something to do with WHY she disappeared, or because she realized she was going to go (maybe it was her choice to depart), and wanted him to at least have the book before she did, for whatever reason.
And why would Nino's phone being the one used to take the photos?
Because that isn't what I said? Here is what I said, with the bolded part added in because you missed it:
It's odd if Gabriel requires Ladybug to de-akumatize himself.
How is that supposed to work as the Moth Miraculous was intended to, if he's a superhero Hawk Moth, not a supervillain? He akumatizes his proxy heroes and they just stay akumatized forever, unless Ladybug is available to change them back? Granted, as long as Hawk Moth is creating proxy villains, Ladybug will always be needed to stop them. But surely it can't be intended to work that way. And if there's nothing stopping Gabriel from akumatizing himself after detransforming from Hawk Moth, there must be some failsafe preventing him from remaining in that akumatized form forever. It's just counterintuitive that the powers were intended to work that way, and would be entirely dependent on Ladybug.
Keeping Adrien grounded isn't necessarily going to keep Cat Noir out of the action. He snuck out before. However, as long as Nathalie and/or le gorille is available to keep watch on him, it's going to make it difficult for Adrien to change. Gabriel obviously can't watch him if he's busy as Hawk Moth. But if he's grounded, then it seems like there should be a lot more opportunities for Gabriel to get his ring, so UN-grounding him doesn't help Hawk Moth's cause, plus it should be easier for his akumatized villains to beat Ladybug if Cat Noir's not available to help her.
Gabriel's two statements about the book certainly appear to be contradictory, but there's a way that they might not be. If Gabriel found the book overseas and presented it to his wife as a gift, and then she gave it back to him before she disappeared, that would make both his statements technically true. Why would she give it back to him if it were his gift to her? I don't know, but it might have something to do with WHY she disappeared, or because she realized she was going to go (maybe it was her choice to depart), and wanted him to at least have the book before she did, for whatever reason.
The Moth Miraculous has the power to deakumatise those it akumatises, so Ladybug is obviously not needed normally. I didn't think I needed to mention that but obviously, I do. But, Gabriel was not the Moth Miraculous bearer while akumatised, so any powers the Moth has are powers he did not have. So you can forget a "fail-safe" for that. He was just an ordinary human man at the time with no Miraculous. So until it's shown an akuma victim can throw their akumatisation off, he had to rely on Ladybug to undo his akumatisation. So no, it isn't "odd".
He grounded Adrien, went and wrecked his atelier, then became the Collector. I think he figured Adrien wouldn't leave so soon. Adrien, as we have discussed multiple times, was only grounded for less than a half hour before the Collector appeared. With a son who is usually very obedient, it probably never crossed his mind Adrien would leave before the Collector could capture him. There was not a huge time skip between Adrien's grounding and when he would have been captured. If he thinks Ladybug already has the book, then he does not have a reason to think Adrien would leave the house. There's no akuma attack going on, and Adrien isn't nearly as upset as he was on Christmas. Plus, he can hear Adrien practising piano. Adrien has never gone against him before. If Adrien was in his room, he would capture him, removing Cat Noir from the situation and making Ladybug easier to capture, too. As you yourself pointed out, grounding Adrien is not a surefire way to keep Adrien/Cat Noir out of the situation.
Maybe it's just me, but "The Collector" was more about keeping Gabriel's identity secret than it was about getting the Miraculouses. Those would have been a nice bonus, but only if he could capture them both. For a moment, his identity took priority over the Miraculouses. Everything the Collector does is about keeping Gabriel's identity secret. His identity has to take priority because he can't move freely if they know who he is. "I did what I had to do to keep my secret". He only mentions taking their Miraculouses once to Ladybug and Cat Noir (saying he'll take them "for Hawk Moth"), and this is what he says after transforming into the Collector: "I am now... The Collector! My book of inspiration has been taken from me, so I shall build a new one! And perhaps pick up a Miraculous or two while I'm at it!", so getting the Miraculouses was not top priority. Before his transformation, he says: "I must become someone else to lead them astray". So, getting the Miraculous was not his top priority. Sure it would be convenient for him to get the Miraculous, but his priority was protecting his identity.
Okay... but you have to stretch to make both statements work, and even you aren't sure why anything happens that way. I don't think we should be treating both statements as true. Why didn't he just tell them both the same thing unless one of them is a lie?
Perhaps all that's necessary for an akumatized person to relinquish the powers is to renounce them, the same way Hawk Moth renounced his powers. We never see such a thing, but then there's no real reason for any of the akumatized villains to want to renounce their powers. We can't just assume it's necessary for Hawk Moth to be in transformed mode and use the Moth Miraculous to de-akumatize the person.
I wasn't thinking so much of the current situation when Adrien is grounded and Gabriel becomes The Collector, but future situations. Gabriel can certainly stand by his prior decision in the matter, because his reasons remain intact. He never wanted Adrien to attend public school, but allowed himself to be persuaded otherwise. After Adrien took the book from its hiding place, he loses it somewhere. It makes no real difference if it was a misunderstanding on Marinette's part. The point is that Adrien doesn't even seem to be responsible enough to keep track of his own property. Gabriel's original concern is that the world is a dangerous place for his son, and that he doesn't know what he's up to, what he's doing, or who he's with, from the time Nathalie drops him off for school in the morning until the time she picks him up at the end of the school day. He could be kidnapped by someone who wants to hold his son for ransom (a business competitor could have hired kidnappers) or anyone else who wants to threaten Gabriel. That's assuming he didn't know Adrien is Cat Noir -- but if he does, he only has to maintain those reasons as his excuse to make it difficult for Adrien to change to Cat Noir and leave the house, which would give him an advantage in achieving Hawk Moth's goals. Divide and conquer. Even if it's not a perfect plan, because there will be times when Adrien will manage to slip out anyway, it still makes it more difficult for Adrien if Nathalie is tutoring him at home.
There's just so much we don't know about the situation of Mrs. Agreste's disappeance -- like why Gabriel has a little shrine with her picture, the Peacock Miraculous (or a simulacrum of same), and a book about Tibet next to it, along with the spellbook. There certainly seems to be some implication that those objects are related somehow. So if the fact that he might have found the spellbook, given it to her at one time, and she later gave it back to him is also true, then it's no more and no less mysterious. It seems like Gabriel isn't telling anyone (including Adrien) exactly what he knows or doesn't about his wife's disappearance, so the fact that he doesn't completely explain what he means to Marinette is no real surprise.
I wonder if Master Fu, not completely convinced that Gabriel isn't Hawk Moth, will want Adrien to give back the Cat Noir ring.
I think he would have used the book on Adrien. In the episode he proved he is a cold-hearted and a lousy father.
Mind your language please, Helen.
However, in "Gorizilla", he proved that he does care about Adrien because he wanted to save him from falling off a building even if it meant releasing a trapped Ladybug.
I think he would have used the book on Adrien. In the episode he proved he is a cold-hearted and a lousy father.
Cold-hearted, no. He does care about his son, he just has not connected that Adrien is Chat Noir. Locking Adrien in the mansion is his way of giving love, which is lousy, but it does not equate to a lack of concern. Gabriel would not allow Adrien to return to school if he did not care. His problem is he wont open up about his worries, and rather proceeds to pursue his goal. Gabriels grreatest fear seems to be he cannot protect himself and Adrien from life, possibly due in part to his wifes disappearence a year prior. Gabriel wants to protect Adrien from the cruel world, and Adriens actions pushed Gabriel to act on his main fear.